Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 7th February 2022, 18:05
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,917
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

My own humble opinion is that if if German pilots claimed victories, and Soviet air units reported losses due to enemy fighters, at least some of the German victories should be justified. I think that the distance between Gumbinen and Stallupönen is small enough for an air battle to start over one and end over the other. Same with the times, 182nd ShAD reported having launched heavy air attacks between between 1200 and 1240 hrs (German time) and lost 5 Il-2 (2 to Flak, 2 missing, 1 shot down by a fighter), while 129 IAP lost one La-5 probably escorting it at the same time. Against these losses, German pilots claimed 3 Il-2 and 2 fighters between 1233 and 1251 hrs.

A possible explanation will be that Stabstaffel JG 51 was scrambled when the attack starts and arrived at the end of the Soviet air assault and then hit a Soviet formation after the bombing was finished.

Still for me, the difference in distance and time between Soviet losses and German claims are inferior to the error margin in reports "allowed" to link them as possible matchs.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 7th February 2022, 19:08
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 143
Courtois Laurent is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Hello Laurent,


Thank you for your participation, indeed, I think it is possible to confuse Insterburg, Gumbinnen, Stallupönen, Kirbataï. This is also one of my explanations for the above-ground claims of the Normandie-Niemen pilots. But I don't think you can confuse North and South, Gross Waltersdorff and Pillkallen.

The most probable explanation is that the German pilots fighting at 1 against 8 (then 1 against 18 in January 1945), only exacerbated the combat techniques of mid-1943. That is to say lightning attacks without trying to continue the fight or trying to really know the result and therefore consider that an aircraft affected was lost for the Soviets in the more or less long term.

It must also be considered that the weather conditions are sometimes foggy and that planes must disappear there.

Another significant element is that this "extraordinary rate of overclaiming" is also found among the Soviets (especially because of the French who representing only 9% of Soviet fighters are not far from weighing 2/3 of Soviet overclaiming ).
Is it due to the end-of-war atmosphere and the will of some to complete a track record before it's too late?

PS: do you have the German losses for this October 24? It will be useful to us for the balance sheet and the comparisons.

thanks in advance
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 7th February 2022, 21:06
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 85
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

I've tryed to make clear for myself that case some time ago and came to another possible plot of that sortie. 2 Il-2 were hit by Flak near Gumbinnen and have tryed to reach own territory but were intercepted and killed by enemy fighters near Stalluponen. But it is just naked theory.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 7th February 2022, 22:22
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,917
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Again from the Luftwaffe summary losses database:
Loss date: Unit: No of Aircraft: Lost Category: Report date:
24/10/1944 III./J.G.2 1 N Damaged without enemy action on operational flight 01/11/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.2 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 02/11/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.2 1 N Damaged without enemy action on operational flight 09/11/1944
24/10/1944 IV./J.G.5 1 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.26 1 N Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight 05/11/1944
24/10/1944 I./J.G.51 2 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.51 1 N Damaged by other enemy action 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 IV./J.G.51 1 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 29/10/1944
24/10/1944 I./J.G.52 1 Y Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight 30/10/1944
24/10/1944 II./J.G.53 1 Y Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight 04/11/1944
24/10/1944 I./J.G.54 1 N Damaged without enemy action on operational flight 01/11/1944
24/10/1944 II./J.G.54 2 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 30/10/1944
24/10/1944 J.Gr.West 1 N Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight 29/10/1944
24/10/1944 II./S.G.3 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 12/11/1944
24/10/1944 III./S.G.4 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 30/10/1944
24/10/1944 I./S.G.10 1 N Damaged without enemy action on operational flight 01/11/1944
24/10/1944 II./S.G.77 1 N Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy 28/10/1944

All losses I have (when I extracted data years ago), so more than East Prussia
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 8th February 2022, 09:08
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 143
Courtois Laurent is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Thank you Laurent, I did the sorting and I got this result:

Soviet claims (in parenthesis, Normandy-Niemen claim).

5 (3) FW 190 and 6 (4) Me 109

Luftwaffe losses in East Prussia: 2 Me 109G. (3 if we wanted to be optimistic).
24/10/1944 I./J.G.51 2 Y Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, observed by enemy 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 III./J.G.51 1 N Damaged by other enemy action 28/10/1944
24/10/1944 I./J.G.52 1 Y Destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight 30/10/1944

11 victories claimed for 2 aircraft lost by the Luftwaffe in air combat.

This confirms that the overclaiming is bilateral.

I looked in detail at the claims of the Me-109 by the Soviets:
4 Me 109, by the Normandie Niemen,
Asp Lemare 1 Me-109 5 km SE near 3:00 p.m.
Asp Manceau/Lemare/Charras 1 Me-109 5 km SE Gumbinnen 3:00 p.m.
Ltn De la Salle 1 Me-109 at 10 km SE Gumbinnen near 15:00
Cptn Matras 1 Me-109 at 20 km NW Insterburg near 6:00 p.m.


1 by 129th IAD, no more info. (805 IAP no victory).

1 by the 130th IAD, from 5.45 p.m. to 6.30 p.m., Two Yak-3, Major Pakhomov and Captain Trechtchev 12 km southwest of Gumbinnen crossed 4 Me 109 and 2 FW 190. One Me 109 had been shooted by the Major Pakhomov, and crashed around Nemmersdorf.

Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 8th February 2022 at 11:52.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 8th February 2022, 12:22
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 85
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Hello, Laurent and Laurent ) Thank you for losses data. Is there any information, did these losses happened not in East Prussia?
24/10/1944 II./S.G.3 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 12/11/1944
24/10/1944 III./S.G.4 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 30/10/1944
24/10/1944 II./S.G.77 1 N Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy 28/10/1944
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 8th February 2022, 13:10
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 143
Courtois Laurent is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZhekaB View Post
Hello, Laurent and Laurent ) Thank you for losses data. Is there any information, did these losses happened not in East Prussia?
24/10/1944 II./S.G.3 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 12/11/1944
24/10/1944 III./S.G.4 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 30/10/1944
24/10/1944 II./S.G.77 1 N Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy 28/10/1944
Hello Zhekab,

It seem to me that the II./S.G.3 is in czechoslovakia
24/10/1944 II./S.G.3 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 12/11/1944

It seem to me that the III./S.G.4 is in Latvia
24/10/1944 III./S.G.4 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 30/10/1944

It seem to me that the III./S.G.4 is in Germany (Saalau).
24/10/1944 II./S.G.77 1 N Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy 28/10/1944


For me, here is the list of ground attack units based in East Prussia.

II/SG1: 39 FW190 based at Gerdauen.
10(Pz)/SG1: 21 Ju87 at Hüttenfelde.
10 (Pz) SG3: 12 Ju87 at Hüttenfelde.
Stab/SG4: 3 FW 190-F8 based in Insterburg.
I/SG4: 26 FW 190 based in Insterburg.
II/SG4: 33 FW 190s based at Hüttenfelde
III/SG4: presence not confirmed.
Stab IV / SG9: 14 Hs129 at Shippenbeil.
13 staffel /SG9: 19 Hs129 in Jurgenfeld.

Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 8th February 2022 at 14:39.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 8th February 2022, 15:16
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 143
Courtois Laurent is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

On October 25 Luftwaffe pilots claimed 4 victories in the Goldad sector (255--):

Friedrich Obleser of the Stab III./JG 52 claimed a Il-2 Sturmovik at 14:59 in PlQu:25999.
Hans-Joachim Birkner 9./JG 52 claimed 1 LaGG at 15:02 in PlQu: 25586.
Hans-Joachim Birkner claimed second LaGG at 15:00
Uffz. Arras of the 9./JG 52 claimed a LaGG at 15:02 in the 25597

On their side the Soviets lose 2 IL-2 destroyed by the Flak, 3 IL-2 missing and 1 La-5 destroyed by damage.

If we look at the detail by division:

182nd ShAD: 2 IL-2 destroyed by Flak, 1 Il-2 missing. At 11:00 am around Schwirgallen 1 Il-2 of 64 ShAP shot down by the Flak crashed near Schwurgallen. 5 Il-2s made emergency landings during the returns.
1st Gv ShAD: 2 Il-2s missing.
130th IAD: 3 dogfights, but only involving Yak-9s
303rd IAD: no encounter with the enemy.
240th IAD: no encounter with enemy.
129th IAD: no encounter with the enemy 1 La-5 destroyed by damage to its airfield.

As this day the Russians do not lose Lagg, I will look for the fights reported by the Soviets in the Goldad sector (2558-,2559-)

130 IADs:
168th IAP: 5:15 p.m., a group of Yak-9s protecting Il-2s from 952 ShAP (311 ShaD, 1 VA) 2-5 km W of Goldap engage in combat with 6 Fw 190s and 8 me109s. During this Combat 1 FW is shot down by Ltn Romenskiy which crashes 2 km W of Goldap (i.e 25582) and 1 Me 109 is shot down by Ltm Borobiev and crashes 5 km from the same town. The Il-2 gunners also claim 1 FW-190. No Il-2 hit.

It may therefore be the combat during which III/JG52 claim 1 Il-2 and 3 Lagg. In general, the name Lagg seems to be the default type of Soviet aircraft and very often when the combats are identified, it is Yak.

This remark brings us back to the fight of October 23rd when we could not identify the Lagg claimed by JG52, perhaps we should have looked for fights involving Yaks?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 9th February 2022, 12:33
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 85
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Hello Laurent,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtois Laurent View Post
It seem to me that the II./S.G.3 is in czechoslovakia
24/10/1944 II./S.G.3 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 12/11/1944
According to ww2.dk Grup's base was Libau (Latvia). But I don't have durable evedances that II./S.G.3 flew in Gumbinnen area in October.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtois Laurent View Post
It seem to me that the III./S.G.4 is in Latvia
24/10/1944 III./S.G.4 1 Y Missing Due to enemy action 30/10/1944
Don't have concrete proves it was in East Prussia too till the end of October, but Larry DeZeng and Andrey Kuznetsov 10 years ago gave this information:
"Now became clear what III./SG4 relocated to East Prussia between 18. and 22.Oct.44 because, according to KTB HGr "Nord", on 23.Oct. only two Schlachtgruppen were in Courland (II. and III./SG3, without doubt)."
look here:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=28698

Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtois Laurent View Post
It seem to me that the II./S.G.77 is in Germany (Saalau).
24/10/1944 II./S.G.77 1 N Damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft during operational flight, not observed by enemy 28/10/1944
According to ww2.dk one staffel could be at Udetfeld (East Prussia). One more thing - Lieutenant Hans-Georg Lohmeyer was attached to what group, when he was missed two days before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtois Laurent View Post
For me, here is the list of ground attack units based in East Prussia.
Stab III / SG3 also was at Libau/Gerdauen
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 9th February 2022, 13:05
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 143
Courtois Laurent is on a distinguished road
Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Hello Zhekab,

Thanks for your help, i will consider the II/III/III STAB/SG3

According the death-card of Lohmeyer was attached to the 6 staffel of II/SG77. Then it's will be possible that this staffel was here or Lohmeyer was detached to an other unity. I'm no idear about that.

Udetfeld is in Poland (1000 far away East Prussia).

Udetfeld(POL)(a.k.a. Zendek, Shendek, Schendek)(50 28 35 N – 19 04 55 E)
General:airfield (Fliegerhorst) in Silesia 24 km N of Kattowitz (Katowice).History:
mainly used by the Luftwaffe as an evaluation and testing center.Surface and Dimensions:
1940 measured 1550 x 2000 meters with 3 runways of 1600 meters each.Infrastructure:
2 hangars and a separate repair hangar
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Observations on the victories of the Normandie-Niemen Courtois Laurent Allied and Soviet Air Forces 9 27th January 2022 11:05
French fighter scores, mainly 1939-1940 rof120 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 61 7th March 2020 21:53
The Liberal View of the German Soldier Sylvester Stadler The Second World War in General 15 22nd March 2009 20:15
60 years after German KL Auchwitz-Birkenau Mirek Wawrzynski The Second World War in General 10 7th January 2008 15:20
Luftwaffe Aces KIA in Normandy in 1944 Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 35 13th August 2005 21:10


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net