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  #1  
Old 25th October 2015, 11:16
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knusel knusel is offline
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Me 410 top ace

Hello there gentlemen,

can anybody tell me who the top Me 410 ace is ?
I assume it must be one of those:
  • Rudolf Dassow, 8-21 Me 410 kills
  • Eduard Tratt, 10-16 Me 410 kills
  • Fritz Strehle, 7-11 Me 410 kills
Thanks in advance,

Michael
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  #2  
Old 25th October 2015, 15:08
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Me 410 top ace

Hi Michael

Here are various pilots that made ace with the Me 410:

Major Eduard Tratt of II./ZG 26 with nine victories.
Leutnant Rudolf Dassow of II./ZG 26 with nine victories.
Oberleutnant Friedrich Stehle of II./ZG 26 with seven victories.
Major Dietrich Puttfarken of II./KG 51 with five victories.
Leutnant Wilhelm Büschen of II./ZG 26 with five victories.
Oberfeldwebel Wilhelm Frös of II./ZG 26 with five victories.

I hope this helps and any comments or corrections will be most welcome.

Horrido!

Leo
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  #3  
Old 25th October 2015, 16:51
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Me 410 top ace

Dear Leo,

thanks for your answer. Büschen and Frös are new to me.
Do your figures reflect mininum Me 410 scores or exact Me 410 scores ?

Cheers,

Michael
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Old 25th October 2015, 22:53
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: Me 410 top ace

Gentlemen,

Please verify these claims before accepting my word for it. I have interpolated the misspellings and jumped to the conclusion that the team of pilot Feldwebel Johann Trenke and his radio-operator Unteroffizier Josef Ottrin of 16/KG2, later 6/KG51, should share the responsibility for the following twelve intruder claims credited to one or the other. I found the claims on the asisbis.com site of Luftwaffe Aerial Victories.

In 16/KG2:
"Treicke" 11 Aug. "Stirling" 02/00716 2800m 14.25hrs
1943


In 6/KG51:
"Trenke" 22 Apr. "Fortess" 1384/05 Ost E 22.04hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 Apr. "Halifax" 1384/05 Ost E 22.10hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 Apr. "Halifax" 1385/05 Ost E 22.16hrs
1944
"Trenke" 27 Apr. "Unknown" 0356/05 Ost E 04.25hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 May "Lancaster" 0489/05 Ost E 1200m 03.05hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 May "Lancaster" 0317/05 Ost E 800m 03.14hrs
1944
"Trenke" 22 May "Lancaster" 0324ZZ/05 Ost E 800m 03.22hrs
1944
"Ottren" 13 June "unknown" 4381ZZ/Ost E 200m 01.25hrs
1944
"Ottren" 17 June "4-motor a/c" 2225/05 Ost E 4500m 02.00hrs
1944
"Trenke" 17 June "4-motor a/c" 1211/05 Ost E 02.15hrs
1944
"Frenke" 03 Jul. "unknown" 007/05 Ost S 500m 0014hrs
1944

They were in Me 410s.

Best regards,

Jim Geens

Last edited by Karoband; 25th October 2015 at 22:58. Reason: clarification needed and misspelling
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Old 26th October 2015, 01:20
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Me 410 top ace

Hi guys

The Nachtjagd War Diaries by Boiten and Mackenzie credit Feldwebel Johann Trenke of 6./KG 51 with nine victories although only eight are listed:

22 April 1944 Fortress 22:04 Sea, 120 or 170 km SE Peterhead
22 April 1944 Halifax 22:10 Coast at, or S of, Aldeburgh
22 April 1944 Halifax 22:16 Sea, 10-20 km ESE Aldeburgh
27 April 1944 A/c 4:25 1-8 km W Mildenhall
22 May 1944 Lancaster 3:05 3-13 km W-NW Blakeney Point
22 May 1944 Lancaster 3:14 15-25 km WNW King's Lynn
22 May 1944 Lancaster 3:22 10-20 km NE King's Lynn
17 June 1944 Viermot 2:15 Thames Estuary, S Clacton-on-Sea

Luftwaffe Night Fighter Combat Claims by Foreman and Parry list his final victory as:

3 July 1944 A/c 0:14 05 Ost S/007 at 500 m

Many thanks to Jim for bringing this fellow to our attention.

Horrido!

Leo
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Old 26th October 2015, 09:07
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Me 410 top ace

Hmm...
I wonder if Dassow's Me 410 score might be much higher.
Has his full victory list survived to our days ?

Michael
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Old 26th October 2015, 11:01
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Me 410 top ace

All

Jan Horn (in Das Flurschaden-Geschwader) confirms the Trenke/Ottrin connection on both dates in question. Strangely he is the only one, beside Jim, making this connection.

The victories are listed by Boiten/Mackenzie in their book, but no connection made. In their defence I don't believe they made any study of the intruder's business end, but simply list their claims for completeness sake.

Neither does Matthews/Foreman list the two 'Ottren' victories under Trenke.

The 'odd-man-out' so to speak is the daylight claim made by Uffz 'Treicke' with 16./KG 2. I have no KG 2 sources and all I can say is that the individual is listed in Tony Wood's 1943 claims list. Treicke is not an impossible name to have in Germany I guess, so I am not able to verify (or deny) any connection made by Jim.

The interesting thing, to me, is actually the recording procedure here. Without knowing, I would have thought the crew filed their claims together and that also gunners, radar-operators etc received some kind of credit. In the cases here it seems we have two claims made by Ottrin without naming his pilot. First of all it indicates he used the aircraft defensive armament to score which must have been rather unusual. Secondly it also indicates he did not mention his pilot's name when filing his claim.
Was that normal procedure?

Cheers
Stig
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Old 26th October 2015, 11:11
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Re: Me 410 top ace

Treicke is not an impossible name to have in Germany I guess
There are none in the German telephone system, however: http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/treicke.html
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Old 26th October 2015, 11:21
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Me 410 top ace

Get your point Nick

Well, anyone who can verify the Treicke/Trenke connection?

Cheers
Stig
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  #10  
Old 26th October 2015, 11:59
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Re: Me 410 top ace

The problem has been over the years the various sources interpreted different ways due to handwriting I believe. I have Uffz Johann Treicke claiming a Stirling 11 Aug 43 with 16/KG 2. He then appears again 22 Apr 43 as Fw Johann Trenke with 6/KG 51-one record had him as Fw Dormsten! Trenke's last kill was from what I can see 3 Jul 44. He was awarded the DKiG. As to Ottrin/Ottren/Ostrzic, his name crops up with Stab II/KG 51 on 13 June and 6/KG 51 on 17 June 1944 and yes, it was possible for gunners to claim separately from pilots-prime example if Fw Gustav Delp, BF to Lt Wolfgang Wenning. Not sure where the christian name came from-he never got the DKiG or Pokal
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