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  #21  
Old 13th January 2020, 00:18
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is online now
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

Hi EdWest2,

Quote:
I will not bore anyone with lengthy examples, but of all the documents that were dutifully destroyed, a great number were not. Documents from the Foreign Office, the SS and other documents. And I have reason to believe that while paper documents were destroyed by the ton, that copies were put on microfilm for easy transport out of the country at the end of the war, perhaps multiple copies.
I think this is a fair statement and helpful for the younger fellas just beginning to ponder the question of what happened to certain Luftwaffe documents that seem to have gone missing before or right after the war ended, but for us "old timers" who have been on the trail of these documents for 40 years and longer, your statement is old and well-known.

I'm not going to write a dissertation here, but the Luftwaffen-Archiv in Potsdam was turned into a roaring, raging, all engulfing fire in August 1944 by Allied bombers. The destruction of archived Luftwaffe files was enormous. Immediately thereafter, Genst.d.Lw. issued orders to all departments and branches to start microfilming their records. You can read more about this here:

“Die Schließung von Überlieferungslücken am Beispiel des Schriftgutes der Luftwaffe 1933-1945” (“The Closing of Gaps in Returned Collections Using the Documentation of the Luftwaffe 1933-1945 as an Example”)

Von Wulf-Dietrich Noack

(Translated by: Henry L. deZeng IV)

Source: this is an article appearing in the following anthology: Heinz Boberach and Hans Booms (eds.), Aus der Arbeit des Bundesarchives: Beiträge zum Archivwesen, zur Quellenkunde und Zeitgeschichte, Schriften des Bundesarchivs Nr. 25, Boppard am Rhein: Harald Boldt Verlag, 1977. ISBN 3 7646 1690 3. Wulf-Dietrich Noack was born in 1914 and in 1977 held the rank of Archivoberrat (senior archive official) in the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv, Freiburg, where he had been on the staff since 1966.

[Note: this translation appears on the LWAG (Luftwaffe Archives Group) web site under Archives in Germany – General Information at the following URL:
http://www.lwag.org/reference/fla001.pdf. It can also be reached via Advanced Search, “deZeng” - scroll through 3 pages of articles and “The Fate of the Luftwaffe Archives at the End of World War Two” pops up.]

Some of the microfilms survived the war. For example, the Bundesarchiv-Militaerarchiv in Freiburg holds 492 reels of 16mm microfilm averaging 2,200 frames per reel containing officer personnel Karteikarten und Akten filmed by LPA during the final 6 months for the war. Unfortunately, due to sub-standard acetone, oxide and other chemicals used in making the film, exposure to moisture and temperature variances for several years while stored in a mine right after the war and detrimental handling and storage by the Bundesarchiv after the collection was in their hands, it is today illegible and cannot be restored. There were a number of other microfilm collections but I have not found details about them.

L.
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  #22  
Old 13th January 2020, 00:33
Steve Coates Steve Coates is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

Larry - Thanks for this post which was posted almost contemporaneously with my last post. Thanks for the reminder about the Potsdam fire damage.
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  #23  
Old 13th January 2020, 00:35
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

Thank you Larry. I would add that, from time to time, certain things are published (color photos thought lost) or 4 tons of Luftwaffe aerial recon photos were found in a barn by the British, and are becoming available.


Off topic a bit, but I make it a point to note such sudden discoveries of various things. There are cases of documents being found in various locations that appear - appear - to have been used as bargaining chips upon surrender. Sort of a 'don't prosecute me and I will hand over the documents.' If the reverse happens, the documents remain lost. In at least one case, incriminating documents were carefully packed, surrounded by explosives and flammable liquids, and connected to tripwires. The question the reader of the following should ask is, Why do this in this particular case?

https://www.archives.gov/publication...techovice.html
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  #24  
Old 13th January 2020, 02:34
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is online now
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

Ed -

I'll be reading that article tomorrow when I have more time - it looks VERY interesting but I am too tired right now to do it justice. The NARA magazine Prologue used to be a favorite of mine, and I'm pretty sure I read every issue published during the 1980's and 1990's when I used to hit my university's library once a quarter to catch up on Prologue and a few others.

L.
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  #25  
Old 13th January 2020, 12:51
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

Larry
A few years ago badly deteriorated microfilms with intelligence reports of Armia Krajowa were scanned and deciphered, so I guess a smilar attempt with BAMA microfilms is possible. The question is, if anyone is interested in trying that way.
As to loss reports, there are several possible reasons, including the package with 1944 reports was mishandled or lost in transport. The question is, if the well known set originates from one source or is it a compilation of reports coming from various bodies. Also, if they were kept separated as they are, or were they mixed with other documents, and sorted only after the war. I mean that if a package of 1944 losses was lost in transport, then there possibly should be gaps in other files. For example I do not see monthly unit reports for 1941.
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  #26  
Old 13th January 2020, 18:15
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

Larry -

My goal this year is to revisit a few important libraries for various things. The '80s and '90s were my years of studying various military related publications for a variety of reasons.

Best,
Ed
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  #27  
Old 14th January 2020, 21:09
Steve Coates Steve Coates is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

In a bid to try and keep this thread on topic, can I please once again ask if anyone out there has anything substantive which casts illumination on this point for the benefit of the understanding of all.

A friend has sent me a further AHB minute d/d 31/10/46 sourced from AIR 2/7771 which in line with the other AHB note I referenced at the beginning of this thread again confirms that at that point in time the AHB held the losses up to the end of 1943.

The 1945 documentation presumably made its way to them subsequently but still not a single concrete reference to the the capture of the 1944 losses has surfaced.
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  #28  
Old 15th January 2020, 13:13
Steve Coates Steve Coates is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

Thinking further about things, it does very much seem as if the losses were captured intact to end 1943. Looking at the documentation it does all appear to be part of the same distribution set,although it's not always entirely obvious when looking at the copies. The 1945 losses appear to come from a different distribution set and reference back to the ADI(K) Captured German Document lists in AIR 40/1182 confirm five different references to captured 1945 losses - 140/74, 143/76, 151/33, 152/54 and 153/82 - and as confirmed in first post not a single reference to 1944 losses. The lists themselves aren't dated but it would seem these date to late 1945. I should also add that that these are all annotated as having been sent to A.I.12 from whence I assume they made their way to AHB.
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  #29  
Old 15th January 2020, 14:28
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

So this is a clear indication (no proof), no 1944 losses were captured.
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  #30  
Old 15th January 2020, 14:35
Steve Coates Steve Coates is offline
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Re: Is there any evidence the 1944 losses were ever captured?

Correct as things stand. Certainly I've not been able to trace a single shred of evidence. I can't categorically state they were not captured of course but there are no indicators that they were which is why I'm hoping someone else might have something to share of a documentary nature.
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