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  #21  
Old 4th October 2017, 11:42
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 3./KGr.zbV 9

Excellent discussion Gentlemen

I never thought we would be treated with three different possibilities.

The basic problem is that we don't know exactly what de Scitivaux ment in his report. If Aeronautique Navale used any intelligence interrogator after missions that individual obviously did not question the wordings either. Was the use of 'Type Arado' a common practice in France to describe a German unknown floatplane? With no access to the actual mission report I have read what Gillet says a couple of times (I don't read or speak French so I have to translate it), and I at least have no trouble to interpret what he ment as a German floatplane, not necessarily an actual Arado, but in fact a German floatplane of unknown design.
Were there by any chance any Ju 52/3m on floats around this day?

The T.VIIIw alternative is quite good in my opinion. We already know the general bad aircraft recognition which existed at the time (well, all through the war in my opinion). The question quite rightly asked by Jaap is of course would it be possible for an experienced pilot, flying over Dutch territory and at least somewhere mentally know Dutch aircraft might be around, to fail to see the quite distinctive Dutch National markings?
I have to agree I am a bit hesitant, since de Scitivaux after all made five attacks, but we cannot be sure about his 'mental' status and his eagerness to prove himself and so on. His angle of attack may have been such that glare could have obstructed a clear view and if he only saw the black paint he could mentally have taken this to be part of the German cross and not the Dutch triangle.

It is so easy for us 'armchair aviators' to dismiss a large number of factors involved in combat, and after all the Dutch (if the T.VIIIw WAS the actual victim) choose to shoot back on de Scitivaux, no doubt rather convinced he was a German Bf 110. I feel pretty certain I would have done the same thing if a Potez 631 had started shooting at me.... Both the T.VIII and the Potez were probably rather unknown aircraft on both sides and especially the T.VIII being very obscure.

The mentioning of the book Blitzed was interesting and also show how dangerous it is to make interpretation without access to complete data.
Bingham clearly choose to rely on all the wrong things in these reports with a final end result completely wrong.

Thanks again Guys
Stig
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  #22  
Old 4th October 2017, 12:32
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Jaap Woortman Jaap Woortman is offline
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Re: 3./KGr.zbV 9

Pieter,

I am glad that we have been able to show why the loss of the Ju 52/3m did not show up in Peter Cornwell's book.

I have to make a remark about “aircraft crashed in the sea, probably close to the shore”.
In Chr-J. Ehrengardt, ‘Petite chronique d’une aéronavale en guerre (1939-1940)’, in: Aérojournal nr. 18, (2001) pag. 14 you can read the French version of the statement made by Scitiveaux but I prefer the English version as can be seen in a thread started by Hans Nauta at TOCH on January 7th, 2006. There he has asked for information about a “French claim 10th May 1940”. Laurent Rizzotti quotes in this thread from "Les victoires de l'aviation de chasse française, tome 1. 10-15 mai 1940", by Arnaud Gillet the same statement in English "I saw a big three-engine German Arado aircraft. I attacked it five times and always from the rear. After each attack my gunner fired too when I disengaged. I stopped after the fifth attack, being wounded on the right arm, and I saw the German aircraft dive very fast, with two motors burning and the direction panels falling in small pieces. I came back to Marck at slow speed."
From this quote you cannot learn that his victim has “crashed in the sea, probably close to the shore”.
On the contrary, the German pilot tried to escape from his attacker in a dive and gave full power to his engines. In such a case black smoke will come out of the exhaust pipes of the engines and will give the observer the idea of a plane with the engines on fire.
This escape is indirectly confirmed by Scitiveaux because he didn’t report that he saw the plane hit the ground/water and his claim could only be that he has damaged a German plane. But I leave that to the French.

Therefore I will propose to my colleagues in the Study Group Air War 1939-1945 to delete T0329 from the database.

Stig,
Ju 52/3m floatplanes were not operational during May 1940 along the Dutch coast. They were operating in Norway in KGrzbV 108.

There is even a fourth possibility and that is "friendly fire".
Has Scitiveaux had a battle with an Latecoere 298? They were in the "neighbourhood". I cannot believe that in such a case he would not have recognized his own mates, but if you want to make it complete it should be mentioned.

Jaap Woortman
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  #23  
Old 4th October 2017, 19:51
Pieter H Pieter H is offline
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Potez F1AC claim over Dutch coast May 10, 1940

Hi guys,

a quick last answer before leaving on holidays:

Below a French text - no time to trace the source, probably a web site quoting the report - of the incident:
Au-dessus des bouches de l'Escaut, lieu de rendez-vous avec les Laté 298, de Scitivaux ne trouve ni les Laté ni son chef de patrouille. Il décide alors de continuer seul jusqu'à IJmuiden où il aperçoit un trimoteur. Il décide de l'attaquer. Il effectue quatre passes, son mitrailleur arrière tirant au moment du dégagé, l'avion allemand encaisse petit à petit les coups. Mais ce dernier se défend bien, et à la cinquième passe, le mitrailleur arrière du Ju 52 atteint le Potez 631 au niveau du cockpit, blessant gravement de Scitivaux d'une balle explosive dans l'avant-bras gauche, lui causant une fracture ouverte du radius. Cette dernière passe est pourtant fatale à l'avion ennemi qui, avec deux moteurs sur trois en feu et les gouvernes s'éparpillant en mille morceaux, pique très fortement vers la mer et s'y englouti. Au bord de l'évanouissement et à petite vitesse, il parvient à ramener son avion au terrain, n'ayant du carburant que pour couvrir le trajet du retour. Il sera hospitalisé à Calais.



For those not reading French, the red text says "dived strongly towards the sea and disappeared into it."So at least according this report a crash into the sea seems confirmed. I admit that it does not literally says close to the shore, but I can hardly imagine the victim - assuming it was indeed a Dutch plane - went out over the sea. Over the shore there was much more anti-aircraft support to be expected. Also there is no report of an aircraft into the sea at this time.


Will see your valuable reactions and inputs once I'm back. Enjoy the discussion!


Cheers, Pieter


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  #24  
Old 4th October 2017, 20:01
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Re: 3./KGr.zbV 9

In his own report, Scitivaux made no mention where the enemy plane had crashed. I suppose that being himself wounded he had something else in mind than to wait for the "big three-engined Arado-like" aircraft to hit the planet.
He just wrote that, when he left, it was in a deep dive with two engines on fire and parts of the tailplane being ripped off.
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  #25  
Old 9th October 2017, 14:54
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Re: 3./KGr.zbV 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieter H View Post
Hi guys,

But I diasgree with Jaap's interpretation of this being a He115. These aircraft only flew at night and before dawn (at least over the target area)....

Cheers, Pieter
Further research in the files of the Bundesarchiv for information about the operations along the Dutch coast on May 10th, 1940 lead us to RL 2-II/4302 Die Geschichte des “F.d.Luft“, 9.Fliegerdivision und des IX.Fliegerkorps von der Aufstellung dieser Kommandostellen bis zur Wende der Kriegsjahre 1940/41.
In Anlage 2 is a summary of the operations on May 10th 1940. I quote:
Nachteinsatz am 10.5. Durchgeführt mit 28 He 115 und 8 He 111.

Morgeneinsatz am 10.5. durchgeführt durch 20 He 115 + 7 He 111.Etwa 34 LM gelegt.
(Einzelheiten fehlen) (Operationsbefehl “Gelb“)


Times are not mentioned. In my opinion this leaves enough "room" for the involvement of a Heinkel He 115 in the fight with Scitiveaux in the morning of May 10th, 1940.

Jaap
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  #26  
Old 9th October 2017, 19:00
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Re: 3./KGr.zbV 9

Why on earth do you absolutely want by all means that it was a floatplane, while the best choice is without a doubt a Ju 52/3m!
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  #27  
Old 9th October 2017, 19:16
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Jaap Woortman Jaap Woortman is offline
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Re: 3./KGr.zbV 9

CJE,

I am only interested in what has really happened.
Until now nobody has been able to give any proof for a Ju 52/3m and the discussion earlier has shown that it cannot be a Ju 52/3m.
So is a Ju 52/3m the best choice? Why?

Jaap
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  #28  
Old 9th October 2017, 19:28
robert robert is offline
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Re: 3./KGr.zbV 9

And why He 115? From memory I can say that there is no mention of any air combat with He 115 on 10.5.40 in KTB of F.d.Luft West or in any other Luftwaffe file. I will check tonight again to be sure for 100%.

Regards

Robert
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  #29  
Old 10th October 2017, 02:13
robert robert is offline
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Re: 3./KGr.zbV 9

Hi,

I have checked again and no He 115 loss or air combat within Dutch area.
Also the units of the 9.Fliegerdivision did not report any air combat. After 03.45 hrs on 10.5.40 20 He 115s of the K.Fl.Gr.106 as well as 7 He 111Hs of KGr.126 were dispatched for mine-laying operations off Den Helder, Ijmuiden, Hoek van Holland, Vlissingen, Zeebrugge and Ostend.

Regards

Robert
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  #30  
Old 10th October 2017, 10:37
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Jaap Woortman Jaap Woortman is offline
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Re: 3./KGr.zbV 9

Thanks Robert,

Interesting. What are the sources and could you give us the file numbers?

Jaap
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