Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

[Franek Grabowski]

Marius

we are discussing about intended bombing of civilian targets, not about holocaust or 5th column activities. Please stay at the topic and don`t lump all together. It would make the discussion very difficult.

Why, it shows how the system worked. Of course you can deny 5th column or holocaust because documents are lacking or that because there are not clear orders but it does not mean those things did not happen.

Sorry, but I don`t have the latest issue of Lotnictwo. What for?

Because there is described such an attack in details.

So you agree the investigation was made long after the war with the intention to declare the attack on Wielun was a "war crime".

The only intention was to investigate all the German crimes. Investigation took some time because it is always a lenghty process including interviewing all the available witnesses.

But why didn`t it happen earlier, for example in Nuremberg?

Because investigation takes time and there was a whole lot of German crimes.

And how did the investigators count the persons killed on 1 September?

I do not know but I suppose in a typical way. By counting the graves and by checking death certificates for example.

Indeed later there was an investigation against Hptm. Sigel (commanding in Poland I./StG 76), but it brought nothing. And it is clear why not. Despite of many killed persons in Wielun this "war crime" is only made in Poland.

Many German crimes are not known outside of Poland. Is this a proof they have never occured? There were investigations made against Hermann Schapper, a leader of Einsatzkommando responsible for numerous crimes against Jewes in the summer 1941 but all of them were turned down by German justice.

The decisive thing is the following: the bombing was done without the intention to kill civilians. The target was much clear, a Polish "cavalry unit". Surely with the silent acceptance (or certainty) there also would die civilian people. But for every military rank it will always be more important to beat the enemy troops and win the war than to take into consideration the lives of civilians.

Pardon, do you consider whiping out a city because of suspected military presence a perfectly justified move? Clearly marked hospital was also a target of military importance? We talk here about Stukas, which were a rather precision weapon. At least they were intended to.

No, because there were many Polish troops marching through it at the last days of August. Even cavalry units. Wielun was important traffic junction. Therefore the German high commands could expect many Polish troops massed there in the city also on 1 September.

But how and where if there were no places to accomodate the soldiers in the city? Do you think there were no spec ops in the area, who would report about the movements? It is ridiculous.

The time in the German KTB is right. For example you can compare the starts of reconnaissance Do 17 of the Stuka units. The first 2 Do 17 started at 4.50 and 5.02 respectively.
Also the escorting Bf 109`s of 3./ZG 2 (escort for I./StG 76) started at 4.57.
Mr. Trenkner clearly manipulated his articles about Wielun.

Why do not you ask Mr Trenkner directly?

I think these are inaccuracies in Polish researching which was only based on Polish witness reports. Nobody looked to the German documents at that time because this was dishonourable.

I find this claim weird in mouth of a person believed to be born in communistic Poland. German documents were not dishonourable but simply not accessible. We may talk about free research only since 1990s. Before that time researchers had very limited possibilities to travel outside Poland.

Sorry? It shows to us that in fact many Polish troops were in the area of Wielun, perhaps even in the city itself in the morning. Can you refute this?

Yes, there were no Polish troops in the city. It is known exactly where they were.

And the centre of the city was wiped out in the morning attack, not later. Why somebody should bomb the destroyed centre of the city for 5 times?

I do not know but it was done.

Perhaps some bombs fell on a civilian house or elsewhere, but it wasn`t intended. And that is the point. Nobody says it did not happen, but it was not intended.

If such attacks are repeated, it is hard to call them incidental. Especially if they were done at daylight.

Unwritten orders? In bureaucratic German Army?

Why not? Have ever seen any order concerning shooting at bailing out airmen?

You mean the intention of the Luftwaffe was clear?! Where is the evidence? A document? Or even the name of your bombed purely civilian target?

Frampol. Discussed before.

What Polish documents do you mean, Franek?
So if a Polish journalist or historian is writing about killed civilians and that this was a "war crime" done by the Luftwaffe you are uncritically accepting this point of view? What about other points of view? Not acceptable for you even when without logic? Is the Polish point of view the only one?
Let`s better speak the documents.

So I allow to talk the Polish documents. So simple. Why you cannot see this point of view?

There is no different document and not a simple typo. I show you that there is a third possibility, even if you won`t accept this one.

That is entirely your opinion.

I think there was the intention to place this "war crime" before the official attack on Poland at 4.45 on 1 September 1939. It should have happen on "4.40", therefore before 4.45, and get the weight of an especially brutal German crime. If someone would later ask for example for other done "war crimes" on Germans, everybody outside Germany could say - you Germans did it in Wielun before the war even started, so shut up.

Nope, because Wieluń was a forgotten place. Westerplatte took the honour of being the first place at war. Attack was done without any declaration of war. It was just enough. And there was just enough other German crimes.

This third possibility is very sad one, but to my opinion also mostly likely. A very simple definition to what Germans did and therefore what they earned.

Nope, because Poles had nothing to the later bomber offensive. This was quite often criticised by commies by the way.