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Old 2nd January 2012, 15:17
Roger Gaemperle's Avatar
Roger Gaemperle Roger Gaemperle is offline
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Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

Hello,

I have published a photo of a Fw 190 that was shot down (probably) on 23 December 1944. It carried the tactical code Black 16. The photo can be found here:

Fw 190 Black 16

Does anybody have this Fw 190 in a loss list?

Cheers,
Roger
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Old 2nd January 2012, 15:25
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is online now
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Re: Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

I have only one black 16 on Dec 23, 1944:
1944-12-23, 2./JG 26, FW 190A-8, 171523, 16 schw, Nettersheim - St.Vith, Luftkampf um 11.45 Uhr mit P-47 der 56. FG. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Bischoff, Hermann, vermißt

Matti
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Old 2nd January 2012, 15:36
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Roger Gaemperle Roger Gaemperle is offline
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Re: Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

Hi Matti,

Thanks a lot. I guess that with a high probability the photo shows the remain of Uffz. Hermann´s Fw 190. With the same photo group there was also a photo of a dead pilot (but there was also a photo of a crashed Bf 109 G or K and the pilot may have been the one of the Bf 109), but I didn´t want to show the photo as it is too cruel.

Cheers,
Roger
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Old 2nd January 2012, 16:05
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Marc-André Haldimann Marc-André Haldimann is online now
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Re: Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

Hallo Roger,

Any chance to see the Bf 109 G or K wreck?

Cheers
Marc
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Old 2nd January 2012, 17:37
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

"FW-190 shot down by an American gun crew of multiple 50 cal. guns near Rotgen, Germany."

US Army Signal Corps Collection, Records Group SC111, NARA.

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Old 2nd January 2012, 19:01
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Re: Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

Amazing picture...

Marc
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Old 2nd January 2012, 20:10
Nordpol54 Nordpol54 is offline
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Re: Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

Roger,
a very dramatic photograph!

Revi16,
what a crash!
Of note is the right corner below, where the GI kneels. In front to him one can spot a wing-mounted 20 mm gun with its bent barrel.

Cheers
Norbert

P.S.: Looks as if both pictures were taken at the same crash-site...
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Last edited by Nordpol54; 2nd January 2012 at 20:49.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 00:50
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

Wow, this place never ceases to amaze. Amazing photo.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 17:43
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

It is an amazing photo Revi.

I wonder what USA unit that was? If the location is accurate this would be right on the northern "shoulder" of the Battle of the Bulge just a week underway at this date. I thought Rotgen was still in German hands? Perhaps the location is a bit further to the west than "near Rotgen" and these troops are from the 2nd Division?
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Old 3rd January 2012, 20:56
Horst Weber Horst Weber is offline
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Re: Fw 190 Black 16 shot down 23 Dec 1944?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Beaman View Post
It is an amazing photo Revi.

I wonder what USA unit that was? If the location is accurate this would be right on the northern "shoulder" of the Battle of the Bulge just a week underway at this date. I thought Rotgen was still in German hands? Perhaps the location is a bit further to the west than "near Rotgen" and these troops are from the 2nd Division?
Hi John !

There are some Rotgen or Rötgen or Roetgen in the area. There is one in the Aachen area, which wasn't obviously touched by the Battle of the Bulge. One is also in the Monschau area, where this photo-series also could be shot at.
At both locations, U.S. troops could had been be present on Dec. 23rd, 1944, since those locations were North of the "Bulge" but were around and just inside the Hürtgenwald-Forest battlefield.
At the Rotgen near Bonn, no U.S. troops were present at Dec. 23rd 1944, so that this photo couldn't have had shot this time at that location there.

Best regards !

Horst Weber
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