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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#51
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
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Went to war. |
#52
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
A few words to Franek:
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2.The journal got a reply. And I was not the only one who wrote a reply. The problem is that the journal must stay competitive when more and more similar papers appear. Even Polish politicians are still using the simple term "we will beat the bad German again" and they are winning the elections this way. It still works in Poland very well. The journal chose the patriotic way and I understand this. PHP Code:
I came back now to I./ZG 1 in Poland. PHP Code:
You are quoting Pniak`s report again and again, where it is more than obvious that he fought with Ju 87`s. At least he was credited with a Ju 87 and this is logical, also when you additionally compare German records. No other Polish pilot reported something about "twin-engined aircraft", right? PHP Code:
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Clearly or maybe not clearly? You are referring to a Polish document, but you do not know it, because it is on the way from England? This is incredible. God save me from this guy! |
#53
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Marius - many thanks for Info...
But where did You found NAMES of pilots, who claimed victories during Polish campaign? P.S. About 3 - airplane schwarm of german airplanes: I dont know about earlywar, but on 3.02.42 there was a combat mission of 3 Bf 110 to airfield near Toropetz. Also, during combat mission one of four could return because of tech problems e.t.c, and 3 other could continue flight to target. "Kette" could appear because of many reasons, & this is not showing that "that planes was BOMBERS or STUKAS. IMHO.
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Went to war. |
#54
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Eugen,
If you are confused by Franek, don`t mind. Franek does not like my work, because I found many German records which are clearing up with so many Polish legends. For him every German document is incomplete or even falsified when contrary to Polish pilots memories. The main point is he must not revise his own vision of air war history in Poland. PHP Code:
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Rotte - 2 aircraft (fighter), Kette - 3 aircraft (bomber), Schwarm - 4 aircraft (fighter). For the 4th Sept. 1939 it is remarkable that several Polish pilots reported they have fought with formations of "3 German airplanes". No doubt, they were mainly Ju 87`s of III./StG 2. Sure, it could happen that one Bf 110 or Bf 109 had to fly back to basis with engine trouble and there remained 3 aircraft in the air. But the Luftwaffe formation of two fighters was already introduced in Spain and later taken over by other nations. But nonetheless of this story I had 18 German victories for the 5th Sept. 1939 before I looked to the details of the mission of the Polish 112 eskadra. Official German documents are reporting of at all 20 victories for the day. So the remaining two victories could indeed be claimed by I./ZG 1 against 112 eskadra. Polish losses are confirming this. Also the account of the formation leader kpt.Opulski. And additionally I have an account of a German airman who was shot down in the Ju 87. He wrote about 2 Polish losses he observed before he had to leave the formation and forceland on Polish territory. Here is something for you from a German document (translated into English by a friend of mine); Expieriences of I.(Z)/LG 1 in Poland 1939: The escort is, according to availibility, to be composed from at least 1 "Schwarm" of Zerstörer formed from 2 "Rotte". The "Schwarm" should fly loosely stepped, within sight of the bomber "Staffel" at appr. the same altitude as the tail "Kette" of the bomber "Staffel". Attacks are to be executed by the "Rotte"... (another simple translation of the last sentence: The general operational formation is the "Rotte".). Marius |
#55
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Evgeniy, you are absolutelly right! Finger four formation was mythicised to some degree, but it was only one of the formations.
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Seriously, how can you imagine serious research without leaving a trace in an archive? It would be known, if there is any serious research on the subject. Quote:
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#56
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Franek,
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This is a serious reproach. So how about a source? Title, page and so on. I am sure you can quote something "very bad"... (?). Please do it. Quote:
I doubt Lachowicki-Cz. correctly recognized these aircraft. He tried to get behind one, but all 3 fled at a very low level. I see no reason to believe these were Bf 109`s. The word "Messerschmitt" is clearly showing he was unable to say what it really was. Bf 109, Bf 110 or whatever? Quote:
The diary of III/4 is stating about "Dorniers" what means completely nothing. One example from German war diaries. Some crews reported Polish Curtiss-fighters or Potez 63. Polish pilots reported about all types of German aircraft they had heard and mostly they were wrong. Surely for Rolski it wasn`t easy to decide what aircraft they really fought against. But to believe now these "Dorniers" had exactly to be Bf 110`s is unintelligible for me. Another example: the original document of the Pursuit Brigade 5.9.1939, which you have declared as one among many (surely falsified (?), because contrary to what you want to have), is reporting about 3 Do 215`s. They were in fact Ju 87`s of IV./LG 1. This is nothing unusual, but showing Polish pilots didn`t know German aircraft types. There is no reason to believe, if someone wrote "Dornier" in the diary it had to be a "twin engined aircraft". In fact it could be everything. It makes a big difference if I am reporting about a Dornier, Bf 110 or on the other side about a one engined or two engined aircraft. The sentence "two engined aircraft" appears in Pniak`s report only and at the very beginning of it. Quote:
We both know very well that such a document does not exist. I know you have read Mr Cynk`s book. The autor mixed the action of the Pursuit Brigade for 5th and 6th Sept., because he believes more the pilots memories than the original documents (this is again not a personal attack, but simple truth and of course - criticizm). When you take into consideration German records you can get out many interesting things about the Polish action. Among others the fact that original Polish documents are not bad and surely not falsified. They are confirming what I have published. I wrote a voluminous article about the Pursuit Brigade for Kagero (Militaria XX wieku 5-2005, page 5-17). Many Poles are stating this is the best work about the unit they ever read. Even if I would find the war diary of I./ZG 1 and this document would confirm what I wrote here, you would comment it as incomplete or falsified, right? Further discussion about 4th Sept., the unit III/4 and possible claim of I./ZG 1 on this days is senseless. Your argumentation is very weak, Franek. I doubt you can convince anybody with it. But I repeat my request for a proof about my personal attacks on Mr Cynk. And please show me your real source about the action of 111 eskadra on the 5th Sept.1939. Isn`t it just Mr Cynk`s book? Marius |
#57
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
2 Marius: thx for help, really. It seems its all clear with I./ZG 1 in Poland. If I will have any additional questions or e.t.c. - I will ask using Privat Message, Ok?
Then, many thanks to all for info about invasion in Denmark. Very interesting, really. For now, I bought a book about Blitzkrieg in West. Now I trying to find some moments about invasion in Holland, and Dunkirk. Also, any websourse aviable about those aircombats may-june 1940?
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Went to war. |
#58
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
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I am not going to participate in this disscussion any more. It is a waste of time, especially as it looks some of your unspecified personal problems seriously affect your research. Bye. |
#59
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
I am closing this thread as it has lost its focus.
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