Hans Hahn

[GMichalski]

hi,

i speak about some pilots with Johannes
and i think pilots like Rudorffer,Tangermann.....
made many overclaims and probably produce
a negatively effect on the credibility of others
who trying to claim being more honest..

the Rudorffer (11) and also Tangermann (4) claims on 28,10.44
will affect the credibility of H Broch, Thyben (not in this case the first claim on this date was for sure overclaim, the second i dont know) or Hannig

i don´t know if you understand what i trying to say...
for me have more credibility Thyben claiming only one in the morning
despite of it was overclaim that the 9 claims in the morning of Rudorffer

i always trying to check claims and losses pilot by pilot not the general numbers total claims vs total losses....

regards

[gaupe75]

Originally Posted by Johannes

same with Walter Schuck his total of 206 is based only on the pilots statement that Hermann Goring told him that twenty-five of his previously unconfirmed claims had(by some miracle it would seem) all been confirmed, therefore his total is 181.

I know for sure that at least his last two claims in Norway is not correct, but I guess he was aching for the 200 mark, but I do not think this was a deliberate lie.

[Nokose]

Okay, I looked at the claims for the 25 Aug 1940 for the time between 18:15 - 18:50 (Berlin) and for five Hurricanes and four Spitfires there were a lot of German claims on the Portland raid.
Following are just from Tony Woods list:
5/ZG 76 claimed three all Spitfires
JG 53 claimed 13
7/JG 27 three (2 Hurricanes and a Spitfire)
JG 2 claimed nine (four Hurricanes and five Spitfires)
Most of these claims were around the time of Hahn's claim for a Spitfire. So the 25th leaves very bad odds that he shot down his claim or that some of these claims were actually shared.

[GMichalski]

hi,

to compare more of this day these are the losses and damaged
(many of Nick Hector)...

25/08/1940 1900 Spitfire I R9819? 616 Wareing P.T.Sgt. pow,evader Calais nr. Crashed after combat over Channel, awarded DFM for escape via Sweden

25/08/1940 1920 Spitfire I K9931 610 Gardiner F.T.F/O. ba,wia Northbourne, Kent Baled out after combat with Bf109 over Dover

25/08/1940 ¿time? Hurricane I N2646 213 Sgt E G Snowden safe Burton Bradstock, Dorset Damaged by Bf109s over Portland. Crash landed Burton Bradstock Dorset

25/08/1940 1745 Spitfire I N3226 602 Sprague M.H.Sgt. ba,safe Portland off Patrol,Baled out off Portland after combat with Bf109

25/08/1940 1820 Spitfire I N3268 92 Tuck R.R.S.F/Lt. wia St Gowan's Head, Pembroke Crashed without engine after combat with Do215, wounded in a leg

25/08/1940 1900 Hurricane I P2755 32 Gillman Keith Reginald P/O. + Dover off Shot down

25/08/1940 ¿time? Hurricane I P2766 213 F/L J M Strickland safe Portland nr. Shot down

25/08/1940 1800 Hurricane I P3200 213 Atkinson H.D.P/O. + Portland off Patrol,Shot down off Portland

25/08/1940 0130 Hurricane I P3758 73 Long (Leng?) M.E.Sgt. ba,safe Beverley nr. Night Patrol,Brought down by british AA fire near Beverley

25/08/1940 ¿time? Spitfire I P9381 602 Coverley W.H.F/O. ba,safe Dorchester area Baled out after combat with Bf109 over Dorchester

25/08/1940 1745 Hurricane I R4199 17 Williams Cedric Watcyn S/Ldr. + Portland off Shot down in combat after head-on attack against Bf110, cut in half

25/08/1940 1730 Spitfire I R6986 609 P/ O P Ostaszewski-Ostoja wia Warmwell Crashed due battle damaged by Me109 over Swanage, wounded in arm

25/08/1940 1730/1745 Spitfire I R6810 152 Hogg Richard Malzard P/O. + Portland off Shot down by Luftwaffe fighters

25/08/1940 1900 Spitfire I R6966? 616 Westmoreland Thomas Emrys Sgt. + Maidstone nr. Lost in combat with Bf109 over Canterbury

25/08/1940 1920 Spitfire I R6969 54 Shand M.M.P/O. wia near Manston Damaged during combat with Bf109 over Dover, repaired (only 20hrs experience, asigned with Deere!)

25/08/1940 1730/1745 Spitfire I R6994 152 Wildblood Timothy Seddon P/O. Mid + Portland off Patrol,Shot down off Portland by Bf109

25/08/1940 1900 Hurricane I V6547 32 Rose J.P/O. ba,safe Channel Baled out over the Channel during combat with Bf109

25/08/1940 1730 Hurricane I V7226 213 Philippart J.A.L.P/O. + drowned Portland off Shot down by Bf109 of JG53, JG3?

25/08/1940 1805 Hurricane I V7250 87 Wakeling S.R.E.Sgt. + Portland nr. Shot down by Bf109 and burst into flames and crashed near Dorchester

25/08/1940 1750 Hurricane I V7407 17 Bayne A.W.A.F/Lt. ba,safe Portland off Baled out in combat with Bf110s and Bf109s, Shot down over Bognor

25/08/1940 ¿time? Hurricane W6668 213 Missing ?

regards

[Nokose]

Looking at the morning of the 04 Sep 1940 in the Folkestone raid time period of 10:10-1020 (09:10-09:20 British) there are only two RAF losses in the Folkestone area. 111 Sqn lost two Hurricanes at 09:15. The 66 Sqn lost two Spitfire at 09:50 and 10:00 beyond the time of Hahn's claim so they're not part of the search.
For two Hurricanes this is what Tony Woods list has:
Oblt. Otto Bertram 1./JG 2 Hurricane 10:10 Folkestone
Oblt. Adolf-Friedrich Götz 1./JG 2 Spitfire 10:10 Folkestone
Fw. Willi Reins 1./JG 2 Spitfire 10:10 Folkestone
Uffz. Hans Hahn 4./JG 2 Spitfire 10:15 Ashford
Oblt. Rudolf Unger 2./JG 54 Spitfire 10:20 ?
Oblt. Hans-Ekkehard Bob 9./JG 54 Hurricane Folkestone
Fw. Fritz Dettmer 9/JG 54 Hurricane 10:10 Folkestone
Oblt Richard Leppa 3./JG 51 Spitfire 10:30 ?

So eight claims for two fighters lost during this time period. Again very bad odds that Hahn actually got one of these and "Folkestone" seems to be blanket coverage of this area.

[Nokose]

04 Sep 1940 14:05-14:35 German (13:05-13:35 British)
46 Sqn Hurricane 13:15 near Stambridge by Bf 109
46 Sqn Hurricane 13:15 over Rochford by Bf 109
66 Sqn Spitifire 13:40 over Ashford by Bf 109
72 Sqn Spitfire 13:40 over Hartfield (Sussex) with Me-110
72 Sqn Spitfire 13:20 over Kent with Me-110
79 Sqn Hurricane 13:40 ? with Me-110
222 Sqn Spitfire 13:20 ? by British AAA
222 Sqn Spitfire 13:35 N of Maidstone unk cause
601 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 ? damaged by Me-110

Oblt. Otto Bertram 1/JG 2 Hurricane 14:05 London
Fw. Peter Fasshauer 1/JG 2 Spitfire 14:15 Maidstone
Fw Rudolf Täschner 1/JG 2 Spitfire 14:27 New Romney
Lt. Julius Meimberg 4/JG 2 Spitfire 14:05 Ashford
Oblt. Helmut-Felix Bolz 5/JG 2 Spitfire 14;15 ?
Obfw Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 14:25 Margate
Obfw Karl Hannes 4/JG 2 Spitfire ? Ashford
These are the claims by other units during that time
I/JG 77 three Spitfires (possibly two more which didn't have times listed)
8/JG 54 one Spitfire
III/JG 51 one Spitfire and one Hurricane (Possibly two more Spitfires which didn't have times)
ZG 76 twenty Spitfires and two Hurricanes

Hans Hahn listed his Spitfire at Margate and these RAF losses were not in that area to my knowlege. So this one with all the overclaiming appears to have bad odds of post-war confirmation for Hahn.

[christian]

Hi

8.III./JG 54

Fw. Pausinger shot down the Spitfire in the area of Rochester, pilot killed. Saw from Olt. Lange and Fw. Karstedt.

Christian

[GMichalski]

Hi,
on 4 of september i have these (many of Nick):

04/09/1940 1335 Spitfire I K9962 222 Ramshaw J W Sergeant + Patrol,Crashed near Yalding, Crashed after combat with Bf109s. Was dead on arrival at West Kent Hospital. shot down at Mockbeggar,Collier Street, near Yalding at 1335 BT

04/09/1940 1000 Spitfire I N3048 66 Smith A D Sergeant wia DoW 6.9.40 Shot down in action against Me 109s over Ashford, Kent,baled out near Purleigh Essex severely wounded and admitted to No.7 Casualty Clearing Station, Benenden; died of wounds 6. 9.40

04/09/1940 Hurricane I P2691 501

04/09/1940 Hurricane P3031 46 Damaged landing at Rochford

04/09/1940 1315 Hurricane I P3052 46 Plummer R F Flying Officer wia DoW 14.9.40 Patrol,Baled out near Stambridge, Shot down in flames by Bf110. Pilot baled out with serious burns

04/09/1940 Hurricane I P3066 46 Ambrose C F Pilot Officer Safe Patrol,Baled out over Rochford

04/09/1940 1340 Hurricane I P3676 79 Wright J Sergeant wia Died next day Patrol,Crashed near Brighton, Shot down by Bf110 over base. Pilot crash landed aircraft at Surbiton

04/09/1940 Spitfire I N3032 66 Flying Officer Peter James Christopher King safe killed the following day Cat 2 on this date when shot down by Bf109's, crashed at Hawkinge 13.30

04/09/1940 Spitfire P9316 92 Shot down

04/09/1940 0950 Spitfire I P9316 66 Appleford A N R L Pilot Officer wia Patrol,Shot down in action against Me 109s over the Thames Estuary off Southend, Essex

04/09/1940 Spitfire I P9378 222 Carpenter J M Pilot Officer Safe Patrol,Shot down by British AA and Crashed at Boughton Kent

04/09/1940 1350 Spitfire I X4182 234 P/O Z Olenski Safe aircraft damaged over Sussex at 1350 BT

04/09/1940 0930 Spitfire I N3044 Flight Lieutenant F. P. R. Dunworth wia Damaged in action against Me 109s over the Thames Estuary off Southend, Essex; forced landed at Great Cowbridge Farm, near Billericay. Pilot slightly wounded

04/09/1940 0915 Hurricane I R4172 111 Bruce D C Flight Lieutenant + 5m E of Folkestone Patrol,Lost off Folkestone

04/09/1940 0915 Hurricane I Z2309 111 P/O J.Macinski + 5m E of Folkestone Shot down by Bf109 and pilot baled out but body was never found

04/09/1940 0915 Hurricane I Z2308 111 F/O B H Bowring safe E of Folkestone damaged

04/09/1940 Hurricane I R4214 601 Jankiewicz J S Flying Officer wia Patrol,Returned damaged

04/09/1940 1340 Spitfire I R6689 66 Cooke C A Pilot Officer wia Shot down in action against Me 109s over the Maidstone area of Kent. Pilot baled out wounded and landed at Hamstreet, near Ashford

04/09/1940 Spitfire I N3032 66 Flying Officer P. J. C. King Safe Maidstone area of Kent Badly damaged in action against Me 109s over the Maidstone area of Kent; returned to base. Pilot unhurt

04/09/1940 Spitfire I X4052 66 F/L G P Christie wia Canterbury Forcelanded outside Canterbury

04/09/1940 Spitfire R6909 152 Sgt. J K Barker mia 25 miles off Bognor He is believed to have been shot down by return fire from a Do17 engaged 25 miles off Bognor

04/09/1940 Spitfire I R6971 72 Males E E Pilot Officer Safe Patrol,Baled out near Hartfield Sussex

04/09/1940 1000 Hurricane I V6638 253 Trueman A A G Flying Officer + Patrol,Dived into ground at Banstead Surrey, Shot down over during combat action over Kenley aerodrome

04/09/1940 1330 Spitfire I X4278 222 Cutts J W Flying Officer + aircraft crashed at Sutton Farm Patrol,Shot down over Maidstone by Bf109

04/09/1940 Spitfire I R6909 152/151 Barker J K Sergeant + 25m S of Bognor Patrol,Shot down off Bognor Regis, Possibly shot down by Do17 over Channel. Body washed up on French coast

04/09/1940 Spitfire I P9460 72 Elliott R D Pilot Officer Safe Patrol,Baled out over Kent

regards

[Nokose]

Nick, you have the 601 Sqn listed for the 06Sep1940 but the source that I'm looking at states that the 601 Sqn lost four Hurricanes at Mayfield at 09:30 (British time). In the area of Ashford there is listed three Hurricanes of the 501 Sqn as shot down but it doesn't state the cause if by fighter or bomber. I checked the locations for the other RAF losses and they were not in the Ashford area. The II/JG 27 listed six Spitfires with no places and times given. There is also the claims of II and III/JG 53 which have times but no locations.

Three 501 Sqn Hurricane cause? 09:00 Ashford

German Claims from 10:00-10:15 Ashford
Obfw Georg Schott 2(J)/LG 2 Spitfire 10:00 Ashford
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Hurricane 10:00 Ashford
Hurricane 10:05 Ashford
Lt. Julius Meimberg 4/JG 2 Hurricane 10:00 Ashford
Hurricane 10:15 Ashford

So three losses for five claims and that is not including the possible JG 27 and JG 53 in the numbers because of no location.

[Nick Hector]

Hi Michael, hi Miguel

To clarify, I have up til now believed Hahn claimed against 601 sqn because they are known to have shot down Himmelheber around that time (and yes, I am assuming that JG 2 was operating at close to Geschwader strength, given that Himmelheber was from Stab/JG 2, and pilots from 1/JG 2 and II/JG 2 claimed victories that morning). Caldwell credits Karl Borris with destruction of one of the three 501 sqn machines. You give good reason to consider that the other 2 losses may well be due to JG 2