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  #11  
Old 4th September 2010, 18:03
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Hello Mars
OK, what I meant was "lost to all causes during oper. sorties". I found my best source on F 19 losses but it doesn't give any info on 20 Feb loss, or at least I didn't find any, the book doesn't progress chronically, so it is a little awkward to use when looking a detail of something that happened on day x.

Juha

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  #12  
Old 5th September 2010, 03:18
mars mars is offline
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

at Page 117 of the book I mentioned:
"Swedish crash report 20th February 1940:
Gloster Gladiator (J 8A Fv no.282?) From F 19 (Finnish no. S-55). Markings: Yellow E.

The complete breakdown happened at landing. Folloing a coming storm the group leader is of the opinion that it is necessary, when taking into account the vulnerable position of the aircraft at current location, to fly to a lake for parking out of the wind for the night. At landing however, the plane is caught by strong bursts of wind and has overturned. Because of the damage cuased: Wing broken, engine and propeller write off. The aircraft has been deemed completely broken. The pilot was unharmed.
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  #13  
Old 5th September 2010, 10:36
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Hello Mars
thanks a lot for the info.
So it was at the end of a non operational flight. Swedes had flown also operational sorties during that day and had fought one air combat (Glad vs SB) so without the info you gave it would have been impossible to say was the accident related to a operational sortie or not.

Juha
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  #14  
Old 5th September 2010, 13:42
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Hello Mirek
on Soviet claim during Winter War, even if old Soviet claim was that FAF lost 650 a/c during the winter war, only 427 aerial victories were said to be claimed by Soviet air forces. According to modern research there were only 388 claims: 188 by fighter pilots, 146 by air gunners and 54 by VVS KBF(43 by fighters and 11 by air gunners). We know that air gunner claims were much inflated so Soviet fighter pilots' claims were not so outlandish.

Juha
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  #15  
Old 5th September 2010, 18:44
Arsenal VG-33 Arsenal VG-33 is offline
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski View Post

in Spain 1936-1938: I can estimate at least over 210, or even more victories up to 300?

Any comments to above estimation?

Regards,
mw
For spain hard to say since republican pilots were usually making "common cash box" for victories. 841 individual and shared claims for republican aviation. Now what was the soviet part?
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  #16  
Old 5th September 2010, 20:54
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

In Spain on republican side, much often was counting as colective victories, but when you add all Soviet victoires which are established by Russian reasarcher S. Abrasov, he put individual list of all Soviet victory claims and after you will add them you will get about 210 v., as a not collective victories but individual.
Spain and Chalchyn-Gol is difficoult, because Soviet had claimed collective victories, not individual, plus very often overclaiming is very high.


Soviete fougth from X/XI 1936 up to X 1938 in Spain mostly on most hotes spots, plus side by side with Spain's pilots, so this is next problem with exacte figure of their all victories.

mw

BTW
I thougt about the most fresh victory claime's list, which is the most higher one, not corrected with later reasarches. Shortyly after Winter War Soviet pilots had claimed several hundres victories over FAF's planes (of coures Finns had lost much less then these claimes.
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  #17  
Old 6th September 2010, 13:24
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Hello
I dig a bit deeper and it seems that after all 53 is the right figure for FAF losses during combat ops. 34 to fighters, 4 to Soviet AA, 1 to bombing, 6 missing but IIRC for most there are a suitable Soviet fighter pilot claim, 1 to Finnish AA, 2 to technical problems, 5 because of bad weather. 8 other were also lost: 3 during training flights, 4 during delivery flights and 1 destroyed by Finns when they withdrew behind new borders. Plus the 4/2 lost by F 19.

Juha
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  #18  
Old 7th September 2010, 03:41
JoeB JoeB is offline
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Soviet aerial claims v Japanese losses in Nomonhan War:

The most common total for Soviet claims seems to be 660, (for example
Stepanov "Air Warfare in the Khalkin Gol", or Pages of Russian Military
History), though other estimates have appeared, (589 in Bergstrom/Mikhailov "Black Cross Red Star").

Actual Japanese losses are given variously as:
-164 of which 90 were combat losses (by Stepanov, though he mentions lack of detail and possibility of combat writeoffs among the other 74 in his source, which he doesn't name, and he doesn't mention AAA)

-"around 100" (Japanese Monograph No. 144, Military History
Section HQ AAF Far East [Japanese Monographs are a series of campaign histories of the Japanese forces written by Japanese officers for the US occupation force after the Pacific War]),

-by counting up individual incidents and monthly statistics in "Nomonhan" by Coox, I count around 115, including some mentioned instances of AAA and combat/operational losses, but it seems a large majority of the 115 were air combat losses. Coox's sources were Japanese archives and interviews with Japanese participants.

Joe
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  #19  
Old 7th September 2010, 15:09
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

To Juha and Joe

I have a "big problem" with classification of victory (several times it was earlier discused). Giving only total loss, for German it is simple damage over 60%, means many victories are delated from many pilot's victory list.

There were many cases of shot down but later force landed and again returned plane into own unit.
There were also a very very few cases, where plane was hit, very slight damaged, but its pilot was wounded and soon or later he died of wounds on the ground.
Costs of pilot's training (general pilot value) are higher then costs of any plane. In this way plane had survived but its pilot had not.

For example in Chalchyn-Gol, where Soviet side lost total 209 in combat plus 49 non-combat loses, total 258 lost military planes, but next big losses were damaged planes. Sovite had lost additional next 385 damaged fighters plus 51 next bombers.
Only presenting amount of destroyed planes means that Japan pilots "did not do nothing" with these over 400 next damaged planes. It is very strange.

There were on Japan side also wilde exagaration - 1260 destroyed Soviet planes (1162 in air combats plus 98 on the ground) or other data more then 1000 destoryed Soviet planes. Of course it has nothing with real Soviet losses, which are 2-5 times less.

Soviet had shot down 588 in air combats (529 fighters, 42 bombers, 17 reccon) and the next 58 destroyed on the ground, plus 14 by A/A.

Of course JAAF had lost total almost 6 times less fighters (but similar number was damaged too: 96 Ki-27 total lost plus 124 damaged, returned into units, all 220; plus next 5 Ki-10).

The same case is with Winter War on the both side.
I think giving only total losses are not right way of presenting success on any side. Damaged, force landed plane also counts as a victory too.

Regards,
mw

BTW
Soviet and JAAF losses accoridng the last V. Kondratiev book "Bitva nad stepju", Moskwa 2008.
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  #20  
Old 7th September 2010, 18:54
steve51 steve51 is offline
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Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Mirek Wawrzynski,

I believe that you have a point about at least noting aircraft that were damaged.
An extreme example would be the Western Desert in 41 and 42. In 'Fighters over the Desert' by Shores and Ring, there is mention of the British recovering over 1000 aircraft in a 17 week period that had crash landed after combat. Of these, some 800 were repaired and returned to service. Most, if not all of these, would have been claimed by German or Italian pilots as victories.
Also in WW1, many aircraft were forced to land after minor damage and were recovered. They were also claimed as victories.
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