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  #1  
Old 11th January 2005, 13:45
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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German pilots straffing civilians in France and England 1940

Does anyone have any works or lists dealing with the subject? I have several mentions of straffing civilians but this does not allow to draw any conclusions as to how common it was.
Franek
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Old 11th January 2005, 19:52
schadsja schadsja is offline
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My family was one of these who evacuated their homes and started on the roads of what was called THE Evacuation at the time.

One of my uncle was the witness of such a strafing situation where one, if biased, can say that "german planes" came to machine guns inocent civilians on the road. However during evening discussions, his recollections were that the road was occupied at the same time by units of the French army in retreat, most were infantry trying to get somewhere under orders and with officers, other groups of soldiers were straglers and lost, mixed in packages with civilians. in the middle of these one could sometimes see a real french army convoy trying to make way through the multitude with artillery and wagons pulled by horses, etc...

In that precise engagement, my uncle recollected that german planes came first at low altitude and flew over the section of road where he was moving with his bicycle, then having seen the cannons and the troopers peeled up to come back and started to shoot at the space where the soldiers were. Obviously some civilians ended up slaugthered in the process. If this type of incident happened on the road going away from Northern France towards Normandy in late May 1940, it must have happened several times in other places.

Was it deliberate policy or cruelty...If one look at it from an operational point of view today, the attack of such an objective was justified under war conditions; in most case, I am ready to believe that the pilots went for objectives of opportunity. If we need some relevant guidance we can look at operations in Iraq today.
To my knowledge, there are a few mentions of such events in some french writings unrelated to "aviation". Most of the witnesses were emotionally and physically involved and their view is obviously biased.

Last but to notice, many frenchmen that I know told me the same type of tale but in their souvenirs the planes were italians. And this subject invariably brought up an enraged emotional state in the teller. Although I have always made a point of telling that no Italian planes were involved in the fight in the north of France in May 1940, people will swear they could see italian colours on the low flying aircraft.

regards
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Old 11th January 2005, 22:08
edwest edwest is offline
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I am reluctant to reply since the inflaming of emotions is a real concern. See this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_bombing

And see this book:
Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945 by Frederick Taylor.

So-called "non-combatants" have been deliberatey targeted since antiquity. As if one could fight a war where only those legally allowed to kill each other would face off and the innocent "refugees" would just stay out of the way. Rape, murder, mutilation, and torture of civilians were not "invented" recently. These tactics are designed to weaken the will of the people so they might put down their arms or at least fear the enemy to the point of having second thoughts about putting up a determined resistance.

My father fought the Germans and later, in the very few times he spoke of it, likened it to a job where you killed the enemy before he killed you. It was his duty to defend his country and he carried it out. He also did not appear to have been emotionally scarred by the experience and just moved on with his life.

It is schizophrenic that in war, a combatant might kill his legal enemy by fire, explosive, gun, knife or brute force, but there is still a desire to retain the image of being better than one's enemies by not targeting their civilian population. However, once the other side does so, all bets are off and the justification, if one were needed, to respond in kind is allowed.

The phrase "rules of war" is a little misleading vis a vis what actually goes on in the field of battle and among those refugees.





Ed
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Old 12th January 2005, 11:06
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Thanks for your reply.

Quote:
One of my uncle was the witness of such a strafing situation where one, if biased, can say that "german planes" came to machine guns inocent civilians on the road. However during evening discussions, his recollections were that the road was occupied at the same time by units of the French army in retreat, most were infantry trying to get somewhere under orders and with officers, other groups of soldiers were straglers and lost, mixed in packages with civilians.
Do you have any date and/or place for the incident?

Quote:
Was it deliberate policy or cruelty...If one look at it from an operational point of view today, the attack of such an objective was justified under war conditions;
There were numerous attacks on civilians or farm animals. My late friend told me of an incident when a mother with children was straffed and killed in field, no possibility she could have been mistook for a military target. Similar action was seen by my Grandpa but I do not remember any more details. But this happenned in Poland and I am interested in the West.

Quote:
Although I have always made a point of telling that no Italian planes were involved in the fight in the north of France in May 1940, people will swear they could see italian colours on the low flying aircraft.
The question remains what they have actually seen and what caused them to believe those were French markings. It is just like Clostermann's yellow Fw 190.

Best wishes
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Old 12th January 2005, 11:09
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Ed
I am not talking of bombing but of individual(?) actions of German pilots that were widely known in 1940 (see Paul Richey's Fighter Pilot for example).
Concerning Allied actions, recently published Spit & Polish does include an extremally interesting and important document on the subject.
Regards
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Old 12th January 2005, 18:57
edwest edwest is offline
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Franek,


To what end are you collecting this information?


Ed
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Old 12th January 2005, 22:11
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Well, nothing at the moment, the subject just appeared in discussion concerning German behaviour in Poland. I was awared of the issue, reputedly quite common but I am looking for something more and better documented. I would appreciate a list ofAllied pilots killed on parachutes as well - as yet I have a few incidents from Allied reports only without details on victims - eg. likely JG54 action on 5.09.1940 over Thames Estuary.
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Old 12th January 2005, 22:36
David Ransome David Ransome is offline
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Hi all,

This may or may not be of use as I couldn't suggest where the incident took place other than probably outskirts of Southampton, England (I'm sure it was either High Street or Church Street) in August/September 1940.

An uncle (since deceased), recalled what was initially reported as a strafing incident when aircraft MG fire went rattling down the street. Apparently no-one killed or injured, but with slight property damage. He said that a few days later it was decided that it was in fact a low level dogfight/chase with fire from both parties, in the 'heat of the chase', but that the information was to be 'kept quiet' presumably as the propaganda value of the incident was greater if it had been a strafing attack!

If there is any truth in this I suppose that there may be a Civil Defence file somewhere extant that may refer to it.

HTH,

David
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  #9  
Old 13th January 2005, 10:57
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Strafing

Seems to me that most of the hit-and-run attacks by German Jabos in 42-43 included some type of strafing of streets and so on.

As for France in 1940, the main problem is that the administration was often the first to leave an area (after an order or not), so the 'Exode' is a really confuse study subject.

My own opinion is that German planes targeted more the railway system or the frontline than the roads, and that French troops and refugees were safer on the road. The occasional attack by Bf110 can't be compared to what happened in 1944 in France.

So far I have few precise example (with date, place and circunstances) of a road strafing attack by German planes in France in 1940. On the other hand I have tens of bombing raids on ports, railroads and airfields, or Stuka raids on frontline units or artillery positions.

I will just add that I don't want at all to say Germany led a "clean war" in France in 1940. More than 1000 soldiers (mainly Black and Arab) and civilians were killed in war crimes by German ground units.
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Old 13th January 2005, 14:22
Smudger Smith Smudger Smith is offline
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May I ask what purpose this line of enquiry is leading to. Not wishing to fan the flames of this rather contentious issue I am sure that every airforce is guilty of this type of action in one way or another.

The strafing of German refugees from Dresden by US fighters in February 1945 springs to mind, truth or fiction, the strafing of trains in the occupied regions of France, Belgium and Holland by Mosquito’s / Tempest’s of the 2nd TAF where not these trains carrying ‘innocent’ civilians. ?

From my own research I have documents relating to certain individuals on a certain heavy bomber squadron purposely returning from raids at low level so they could strafe trains and motor transport.

I agree these actions should be reported and open to discussion, however lets not restrict ourselves to one particular airforce.

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