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Old 7th May 2005, 18:31
Six Nifty .50s Six Nifty .50s is offline
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Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

I am trying to piece together facts about this massive dogfight over Germany. On this day USAAF fighters engaged Luftwaffe fighters from JG 300, JG 301 and possibly other units. The Germans were concentrated in two large groups or 'gaggles' as they were sometimes called. Several American fighter pilots said that it was the largest formation of enemy planes they had ever seen.

I was wondering if there is a record that tells us how many German fighters were sent aloft that day, their losses, and at what times they took off from their bases.

I just received a copy of Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau" by Willi Reschke but unfortunately the narrative does not contain as much information as I had anticipated.
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Old 7th May 2005, 22:29
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Re: Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

Biggest air batttle for November 44 ? Actually 2 November 44 outdoes the 27th for ferociousness as well as the 26th which was the Black day for JG 301 losing over 40 Fw 190A's, and in return knocking down some 21 2nd Air Division B-24's. The 26 of November 44 losses are nearly double in men KIA and wounded compared to the 27th.


Your reference to the biggest battle over Germany is from where if I may ask ?

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Old 7th May 2005, 23:28
Bertrand H Bertrand H is offline
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Re: Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

**I just received a copy of Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau" by Willi Reschke but unfortunately the narrative does not contain as much information as I had anticipated.***

Be patient ! the book on this subject and the other battles with JG300 is not very far. French people can subscribe to the master work of Jean Yves Lorant and "it seems" that for the Paris Air Show it could be available.

Most of your request will have replies for I think inside "the book of the year"

In french, Editions Larivière and Eagles for the non-reader french.

Bertrand H
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Old 7th May 2005, 23:29
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Re: Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

It appears that two gruppen of JG 301 possibly were flying in a large Gefechstverband with all of JG 300. Reason enough for P-51 pilots to feel they had the whole of the Luftwaffe in front of them. Although it was quite overwhlming for some 14 Luftwaffe gruppen to take on over 800 US fighters.

The area you are researching with the contact of P-51's- 352nd, 353rd and 357th fg's with the 2 Geschwaders is in the area of the Harz mountains. 81 German craft were lost with 35 KIA and 14 wounded. Not too good a fare for claims of some 11 P-51's eh ? A definate height advantage for the US escort fighters in this almost one sided engagement.

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Old 8th May 2005, 03:21
Six Nifty .50s Six Nifty .50s is offline
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Re: Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich
It appears that two gruppen of JG 301 possibly were flying in a large Gefechstverband with all of JG 300. Reason enough for P-51 pilots to feel they had the whole of the Luftwaffe in front of them. Although it was quite overwhlming for some 14 Luftwaffe gruppen to take on over 800 US fighters.
Thank you Erich, but your reply has prompted a few other questions.

Is it true that JG 300 and JG 301 launched a total of five gruppen, and could you please identify the other nine gruppen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich
81 German craft were lost with 35 KIA and 14 wounded. Not too good a fare for claims of some 11 P-51's eh ? A definate height advantage for the US escort fighters in this almost one sided engagement.
You meant 81 aircraft was the total lost by all 14 gruppen or just the combined losses of JG 300 and JG 301?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich
The area you are researching with the contact of P-51's- 352nd, 353rd and 357th fg's with the 2 Geschwaders is in the area of the Harz mountains
I believe you are correct, but not all three USAAF groups appeared at the same time. Twelve Mustangs from the 359th FG were also engaged -- the rest of their P-51s (about 40 planes) had been dispersed by heavy flak, and most had returned to base because they ejected their drop tanks earlier.
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Old 8th May 2005, 10:31
Boandlgramer Boandlgramer is offline
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Re: Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich

The area you are researching with the contact of P-51's- 352nd, 353rd and 357th fg's with the 2 Geschwaders is in the area of the Harz mountains. 81 German craft were lost with 35 KIA and 14 wounded. Not too good a fare for claims of some 11 P-51's eh ?

E ~
were there few B 17 or B 24 claims ?
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Old 8th May 2005, 20:13
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Re: Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

there were no Viermots claimed only US fighter escorts.....

The losses I mentioned in men and material was for the total of the day by all Luftwaffe gruppen. JG 301 lost 14 Fw 190A-9's with a claim of 1 ? P-51.

Stab./JG 301, I. and II. gruppe flew with JG 300 which was the I.-IV.th Gruppes. JG 300 only claimed 4 P-51 for a loss of 39 aircraft. Hopefully volume 2 of Lorant/Goyat JG 300 book will enlighten us further on the trueness of the losses and claims.

I./JG 1
II./JG 1
I./JG 3
III./JG 3
I./JG 26
III./JG 27
IV./JG 27
IV./JG 54 with Fw 190A-8's
I./JG 300
II.Sturm/JG 300
III./JG 300
IV./JG 300
Stab./JG 301
I./JG 301 with Fw 190A-9's
II./JG 301 with Fw 190A-9's

by the way this was JG 301's 3rd operative mission with the Fw 190A. Will have to dig back into my base to see the firm losses of this unit: 7 KIA and 4 wounded ?
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Old 8th May 2005, 21:34
Boandlgramer Boandlgramer is offline
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Re: Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

erich ,
have you checked out Tony Wood's Combat Claims & Casualties Lists side for the claims of the day ?

if you don´t know the link:


http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm
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Old 8th May 2005, 21:52
Klaus Schiffler Klaus Schiffler is offline
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Re: Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

Here is a summary of Luftwaffe fighter units involved on 27 November 1944 with claims and losses:

I/JG 1: no claims; 1 damaged, no pilots lost
II/JG 1: no claims; 1 destroyed, no pilots lost
I/JG 3: no claims; 3 destroyed, 3 damaged, no pilots lost
III/JG 26: 2 P-51; 6 destroyed, 2 pilots killed, 2 wounded
I/JG 26: no claims; 1 destroyed, 1 pilot wounded
III/JG 27: no claims; 3 destroyed, 3 pilots killed
IV/JG 27: 1 P-47, 2 P-51; 11 destroyed, 1 damaged, 2 pilots killed, 2 wounded
IV/JG 54: no claims; 2 destroyed, 2 pilots killed
I/JG 300: claims unknown; 12 destroyed, 1 damaged, 3 pilots killed
II/JG 300: 2 P-51; 12 destroyed, 3 damaged, 7pilots killed, 4 wounded
III/JG 300: 2 P-51; 12 destroyed, 7 pilots killed, 1 wounded
IV/JG 300: claims unknown; 3 destroyed, 1 pilot killed
Stab/JG 301: no claims; 1 destroyed, 1 pilot killed
I/JG 301: 1 P-51; 11 destroyed, 3 damaged, 4 pilots killed, 4 wounded
II/JG 301: claims unknown; 3 destroyed, 3 pilots killed

I am taking these statistics from Jochen Prien, Jagdgeschwader 1 und 11 Teil 3 1944-1945.
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Old 9th May 2005, 00:03
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Re: Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

Boandlgramer remember that Tony's is just a claims listing...........


for 26 November 44 JG 301 alone claimed over 50 US a/c and in reality were given 21 B-24's and 1 P-51. Truth is that they clobbered the 491st bg with a loss of 16 according to the bomb group historian/vets and also another 5 B-24's from the 445th bg. I cannot account for which US escort unit lost the P-51.
Truly this is just one incident and if we wish to take the listings of kills as fact then the US 8th AF bomber groups on the 27th of November 44 are in total denial. The US escorts had the jump on JG's 300 and 301 we know this for fact. As to the others that Klaus and I listed I can only presume similiar instances occurred.
Ideally it might be wise to observe the kills "claimed" by each Geschwader-gruppe history by forum member/authors such as Prien and Caldwell, Mombeek.

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