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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
I will try to do the same work as the one done for October 22 for the whole of me.
I want to apologize because I deal with the day in disorder to follow the progress of my work on the Normandie-Niemen. Today we are going to look at October 23. This day the JG52 claims 8 victories, 7 Lagg and 1 Il-2 in the sector of gumbinnen. This day the 1st VA (Air Force) loses 11 planes of which 7 (6 IL-2 and 1 Yak-9) are shot down by the Flak and 4 are reported missing (4 Il-2) 1 Gv ShAD (Sturmovik Division) has two 2 il-2s shot down by Flak. The flight division from 12:50 p.m. to 6 p.m. 331 ShAD has 2 Il-2s shot down by Flak + 1 missing. The flight division from 12:45 p.m. to 6 p.m. 182 ShAD has 2 Il-2s shot down by Flak + 1 missing. The flight division from 2:40 p.m. - 6 p.m. The 64th ShAP carried out a bombardment mission from 2 p.m. to 2:40 p.m. of the Gross Trakehenen sector protected by Lagg-5s of the 805 IAP For the 397th ShAP: no information For the 539th ShAP: no information, but protected by the Lagg of the 805th IAP. 277th ShAD two 2 Il-2 shot down 1 missing The 130th IAD had a 1 Yak-9 shot down by the Flak. The 129th IAD protect IL-2 of the 182nd ShAD and 277th ShAD. 1 combat without victory or loss between Lagg (805 IAP) and German planes (425 cartridges of SchVAK used). 790 IAP = no information. 805 IAP = 1 combat between 2 la-5 and two Me 109 without result. The time is not specified in the regiment's report. 863 IAP = no information. - 303 IAD => 12 la5 and 8 La7 of the 523rd IAP fly during the day. 1 fight has binds in the day. from 4:30 p.m. to 5:20 p.m. two La7s encounter two Me-109s near Gumbinnen and the attacks one Me 109 is shot down and crashes 4 km SE of the town. this fight matches that claim : Wilhelm Batz of the Stab III./JG 52 shooted down a LaGG at4000m at 14:39 in the sector 25389. this victory is not confirmed by the Soviet archivesThe Soviet sources available to me do not allow me to identify the other battles that led to German claims. However, the lack of loss of Lagg-5 and Lagg-7 during the day suggests that all of JG52's victories come under Overclaiming. Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 3rd February 2022 at 18:07. |
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
Greetings,
On October 22, 1944 the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD had the following four permanent Il-2m3 Sturmovik losses: 74 GvShAP: Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1875299 (Shatapin) 75 GvShAP: Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1878692 (Popov) Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1877998 (Abramov) 76 GvShAP: Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1875292 (Kozin) - at landing. Cheers, Gabor |
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
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Thans for your answer, thanks to it , i have seen, i have wrote 22 instead 23. I had already discussed October 22 here : http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=61464 |
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
I am sorry, then here are the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD losses for October 23, 1944:
74 GvShAP: Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1877699 (Malinovskii) - combat loss Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 18826114 (Kolotoets) - combat loss 76 GvShAP: Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1874588 (Emelyanov) - at landing 136 GvShAP: Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1870596 (Lutin) - at landing Gabor |
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
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You are right, but as it was IL-2 hit by Flak and I was looking for lagg5, I did not go into detail. I limited myself to this: 1 Gv ShAD (Sturmovik Division) has two 2 il-2s shot down by Flak. The flight division from 12:50 p.m. to 6 p.m. |
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
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The only unit of JG 52 that claimed that day was II Gruppe and I don't think they were in Poland/East Prussia but rather defending Hungary. Bernd Barbas put them at Taktakenéz. What is your sources regarding this unknown claim by Batz and other JG 52 claims in "your area"? With regard to II./JG 52s activities in the defense of Hungary I am sure our knowledgeable Gabor knows basically everything. Understandably he probably like us to buy his forthcoming book and does not want to go into details here I will buy his books anyway though!! Cheers Stig |
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
Thank you Stig, the book is in the final phase, lots of work going on with the editor and the typesetter. I hope it will be available in early March. Just a little more patience... ;-)
Thanks, Gabor |
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
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Cheers Stig |
#9
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
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Hello Stig Jarlevik, We are spoken about the 23th october, the 22th is an other tread. For the 23, i tried to work from Tony WOOD's list of which I am attaching an extract below In my mind the III/JG52 was based in : 10.44 - 10.44 Lobellen Bf 109G 10.44 - 11.44Jürgenfelde Bf 109G Them it's seam to me that Batz claimed victory in East Prussia. |
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944
Ahh
It seems e-mails overlap here. I took an interest in the subject because Gabor stated some real losses (I am interested in Soviet aircraft where their production numbers are mentioned). After pressing enter I got an immediate automatic reply and never checked anything above that so I never saw dates etc had been changed. Sorry about that. Thanks Gabor for the Il-2 losses for the 23rd as well!! Cheers Stig |
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