looking for info on HE-111 losses over Holland, 10th may 1940

[Jaap Woortman]

Originally Posted by kiwi123

Maybe some people can add to this? I've tried to find the corresponding Fokker G.I. number for each 111 loss.

Now we come to the most difficult part. Who has shot down who! Why difficult? Very simple. In one hand we have the German losses. Mostly proven, not always, by primary sources. And in the other hand we have the Dutch claims. Mostly not proven by primary sources. Many Dutch combat reports have been written after 1945. In many cases more then five years after it has happened. These reports have been used by Molenaar in his work: De luchtverdediging in de meidagen 1940. Till now the standard work about the airwar in Holland during the days in May 1940. It is obvious that his work is not 100% reliable, but his files can be checked in the archives of the NIMH at The Hague.
We have something that Molenaar did not have had and that is 60 years of research and that helps us in coming as close as possible to what has really happened at that day, at that hour, at that place.
But please gentlemen, use primary sources and mention your sources. Otherwise the discussion will end in disaster.

Kiwi123, I love your painting. Very nice. But are sure that Geschwaderkommodore Fiebig was shot down before the attack at the Dutch airfields? The Fokker G-1 of Noomen has shot down two He 111's who had bombed Waalhaven! Molenaar page 233. And I do not believe that they were still flying after the bombardement in this kind of formation.

Jaap

[kiwi123]

Hi Jaap, thanks for your reply ! The reason I post the image is because I would like it to be as accurate as possible (I basically have a few days left before I need to finish it). The idea is that this depicts the bombers returning home after bombing waalhaven. Why wouldn't they fly back in formation (as that would still give maximum protection with their crossfire) ?

[Skyraider3D]

Maybe somebody can confirm or deny... did the Dutch AAA defenses look as displayed (dense, black puffs)? I would expect less AAA, more light calibre (tracers rather than puffs) and the 40mm Bofors to have smaller, lighter coloured puffs. Currently it reminds me of 88mm flak over Germany.

[Jaap Woortman]

Originally Posted by kiwi123

Hi Jaap, thanks for your reply ! The reason I post the image is because I would like it to be as accurate as possible (I basically have a few days left before I need to finish it). The idea is that this depicts the bombers returning home after bombing Waalhaven. Why wouldn't they fly back in formation (as that would still give maximum protection with their crossfire) ?

I can understand your idea, but what about the 7 pcs 7,5 cm LuA(AAA, Flak) around Waalhaven? Maybe they have re-assembled after the attack in close formation but that must have been not over the direct area around Rotterdam. Maybe re-assembling over Brabant. By the way Rockanje-Hellevoetsluis is south-west of Rotterdam and that is not the direction you have to fly if you want to go to Germany.
But of course it is the liberty of the painter! I was not there!

Jaap

[mathieu]

@ Kiwi,

There always has been confusion about what happened when and were!
The last years many photos emerged via Ebay and together with help of books like mr Malan wrote I think we are allowed to say ( no 100% of course) that Kuipers flew the 319. Venema got killed when he tried to leave the aircraft after he had returned to the aircraft to pick up the machine gun. There are published 2 articles in the newsletter from the Fokker G.1 association about the 319, when I come home from Nigeria I'll scan them for you.

Best regards,

Mathieu

www.fokker-g1.nl

[kiwi123]

The final result:
http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/ontheprowl.jpg

This is a depiction of the Fokker G.I.a 312 flown by P. Noomen with H. de Vries as gunner. It started as first G.I.a during the bombardment of Waalhaven (Rotterdam) airbase on the 10th of May, 1940. After shooting down 2 Heinkel 111s it landed back at Waalhaven with a punctured fuel tank and the right engine stopped.
The closest Heinkel is 5J+DA, of stab KG4, which belly landed in St. Annapolder with one crew member killed. The geschwaderkommodore Oberst Fiebig and everyone else in the crew were captured unhurt.

Thanks everyone for their help !

[Skyraider3D]

Great stuff Wiek, and great research everyone else too!

[wiegand]

[quote=kiwi123;30805]Stab KG4 Heinkel He111P. Returned badly damaged by flak and Fokker G1 of 3-II-1 (1e Lt. A. van Oorschot and Sgt. W. P. Wesly) over Waalhaven 4.10 a.m. Oberlt Andersch unhurt. Fw P-K. Schiel badly wounded, admitted to hospital in Delmenhorst. Fw H. L. Romatowsky and Uffz H. Wiegand slightly wounded. Aircraft damaged but repairable.quote]

Peter, et all,

Any more info on Uffz H. Wiegand. Wondering if this is same Oblt. H-H Wiegand later of 5./KG 4

[Peter Cornwell]

Wiegand,

Not the same man. Uffz Heinz WIEGAND (b.27.1.1915) of Stab KG4 wounded 10 May 1940. Oberlt Hans-Heinrich WIEGAND (b.19.10.1911) of 5./KG4 killed 7 September 1940. I guess they could be brothers but doubt it very much indeeed, the first being born in Dusseldorf and the other in Wasenberg.

[wiegand]

Originally Posted by Peter Cornwell

Wiegand,

Not the same man. Uffz Heinz WIEGAND (b.27.1.1915) of Stab KG4 wounded 10 May 1940. Oberlt Hans-Heinrich WIEGAND (b.19.10.1911) of 5./KG4 killed 7 September 1940. I guess they could be brothers but doubt it very much indeeed, the first being born in Dusseldorf and the other in Wasenberg.

He had an uncle in heer so not same guy.

Thanks as always, Peter.
Cheers.