Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

[AndreasB]

On Kew and Duxford/IWM:

My understanding is that any file originating with the British forces is held in Kew. Captured enemy documents are held by the IWM and can be read in Duxford (on appointment), or in London (on appointment, they would be shipped from Duxford). The files in Duxford are the same (as far as I can tell) as the ones held in NARA (they are photostat copies of the NARA files, mostly in poor condition, with the exception of some originals. I do not believe they hold a lot of GAF stuff. You are allowed to use a camera at Duxford, but will likely struggle to do this in the IWM Reading Room in London.

Nick, the tip on the AHB files is supremely helpful - I was wondering where these were held.

I hope this helps.

All the best

Andreas

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by AndreasB

Off topic, but could you do this table for Q4/41 and Q1/42?

Andreas, I can not do that, because the data is from Mr. Hooton's book and his tables do not cover the periods in question.

Originally Posted by AndreasB

On Kew and Duxford/IWM:

My understanding is that any file originating with the British forces is held in Kew. Captured enemy documents are held by the IWM and can be read in Duxford (on appointment), or in London (on appointment, they would be shipped from Duxford). The files in Duxford are the same (as far as I can tell) as the ones held in NARA (they are photostat copies of the NARA files, mostly in poor condition, with the exception of some originals. I do not believe they hold a lot of GAF stuff. You are allowed to use a camera at Duxford, but will likely struggle to do this in the IWM Reading Room in London.

Nick, the tip on the AHB files is supremely helpful - I was wondering where these were held.

I hope this helps.

All the best

Andreas

Thank you for that information, it matches quite closely what my friend, who has contacted the IWM and will be going there soon, has been told. However, there is a discrepancy insofar as the IWM curator has indicated that the Duxford files are duplicates of files in Kew. These may since have been culled from Kew, although that is a guess on my part. My friend and I, if I have some free time, will investigate this further.

Could you look at the private message I sent you?

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[AndreasB]

Paul

Thanks for checking. It would have been too good to be true, since nobody seems to have exact German losses for the period.

The duplication maybe true for some files (AHB), but almost certainly not for the captured German records, which are only held at Kew in the UK. Just wondering if somewhere in AIR20 captured records maybe swirling around?

Didn't receive a PM from you I'm afraid.

All the best

Andreas

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by AndreasB

Paul

Thanks for checking. It would have been too good to be true, since nobody seems to have exact German losses for the period.

The duplication maybe true for some files (AHB), but almost certainly not for the captured German records, which are only held at Kew in the UK. Just wondering if somewhere in AIR20 captured records maybe swirling around?

Didn't receive a PM from you I'm afraid.

All the best

Andreas

Hello Andreas,

Seems that you got the PM in the end! Artie Bob, could you check your inbox as well?

Is the absence of precise loss information in the Crusader period linked with the absence of Bewegungsmeldungen or some other problem with the sources?

There is no clarity so far regarding the duplication issue after my friend's visit to Duxford, but the people at Kew have told him that there definitely is something "swirling around" in AIR20 in terms of captured documents! It'll probably take a couple of visits there to get a good sense of what's available.

The best thing found in RAF Post-Hostilities Book 21 today was this:
A.D.I.(K) report No. 351/1945
GAF Operations, Claims and Losses 1944 - February 1945

This is where Ted Hooton's 1944 figures come from.

Losses for January 1945 are given below. It is unclear if ground attacks are included in the other totals, hence two different totals at the bottom. As Artie Bob wrote, the low losses on the Eastern front are quite a surprise:

Day Fighters Reich br 152
Night Fighters Reich br 47
Attacks on Airfields br 87
Western Front Day br 427
Western Front Night br 50
Luftflotte 4 br 103
Luftflotte 6 br 229
Luftflotte 1 br 4
Norway br 12
Denmark br 1
Italy br 3
Total br 1115
Without ground attacks br 1028

Paul Thompson

[Nick Beale]

Is anyone in this discussion referring to the National Archives online catalogue? Obviously it doesn't offer certainty as to files' content (only visiting and doing the reading will really do that) but I'd have thought it would eliminate some of the conjecture in this thread.

As I said the AHB 6 microfilms I saw at the IWM contained material in German; the AIR20 files I mentioned are in a sequence entitled "GERMAN (OR ENEMY) AIR OFFENSIVE AGAINST GREAT BRITAIN (Code 45): Translations from Captured Enemy Documents."

I haven't noticed any duplication between the two but neither have I read everything in both sets of material, I was following up specific lines of enquiry. The IWM microfilms for example include the KTB of Stab JG 77 which I spent a very long time translating into English, something I probably wouldn't have done if I'd found an English version first.


By the way, you'll find ADI(K) No. 351/1945 at Kew on AIR 40/2423.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Is anyone in this discussion referring to the National Archives online catalogue? Obviously it doesn't offer certainty as to files' content (only visiting and doing the reading will really do that) but I'd have thought it would eliminate some of the conjecture in this thread.

As I said the AHB 6 microfilms I saw at the IWM contained material in German; the AIR20 files I mentioned are in a sequence entitled "GERMAN (OR ENEMY) AIR OFFENSIVE AGAINST GREAT BRITAIN (Code 45): Translations from Captured Enemy Documents."

I haven't noticed any duplication between the two but neither have I read everything in both sets of material, I was following up specific lines of enquiry. The IWM microfilms for example include the KTB of Stab JG 77 which I spent a very long time translating into English, something I probably wouldn't have done if I'd found an English version first.


By the way, you'll find ADI(K) No. 351/1945 at Kew on AIR 40/2423.

Nick, as usual, you have a good point. My friend was looking at the duplicate issue in the first instance, but of course he and I are well aware of the online catalogue. The issue that arises is one of file summaries. The AIR20 file you refer to is relatively straightforward, but how did you link the ADI(K) report and the AIR40 file? Is that your own previous experience of reading the file, or a better method of searching?

I am sorry to hear about your wasted effort, which I assume means that you didn't have the IWM AHB 6 catalogue. The curator dealing with my friend's request very kindly provided that to him.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

... how did you link the ADI(K) report and the AIR40 file? Is that your own previous experience of reading the file, or a better method of searching?

Well sheer genius obviously played a part, but I think (from memory) that once the ADI(K)s were finally declassified in the UK I checked out the AIR 40 paper index at the (then) PRO. Online, it's easy enough to find e.g. via a search in AIR40 using the keyword "prisoner." Once you get a hit, use the "browse from here" button. With AIR40/2423 the details given are that the file covers July–August 1945 and has the "scope and content: 343-381." From that you can infer that it contains No. 1945/351.

BTW, as far as I know there is no English translation of Stab KG 77's diary apart from the one I made of the 1944 entries, so I never felt I'd wasted my time on it. I needed it for a book I was co-writing and I got a result I could trust (or at least know the many limitations of).

[Andreas Brekken]

Originally Posted by AndreasB

Paul

Thanks for checking. It would have been too good to be true, since nobody seems to have exact German losses for the period.

The duplication maybe true for some files (AHB), but almost certainly not for the captured German records, which are only held at Kew in the UK. Just wondering if somewhere in AIR20 captured records maybe swirling around?

Didn't receive a PM from you I'm afraid.

All the best

Andreas

Hello

What period are you referring to?

Regards,
Andreas B

[AndreasB]

Operation CRUSADER - North Africa, Italy, Greece, 11-41 to 2-42.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas Brekken]

Originally Posted by AndreasB

Operation CRUSADER - North Africa, Italy, Greece, 11-41 to 2-42.

All the best

Andreas

Hi

Losses in this period should not be a problem at all. What kind of figures are you looking for exactly? I am currently working to hard to promise to deliver you anything at once, but there should be quite unproblematic to get this out of the database once I have a couple of hours spare time.

Regards,
Andreas B