Help ID RAF Grid Reference S.1676

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Good morning to all.

Could someone give me a help to ID the RAF Grid Reference S.1676?

I do not know where to start...any clues or help, most welcomed.

This was mentioned on July 1943. I do not know if this code was changed earlier or later during the war.

Adriano

[SteveB]

Adriano

You need to check this out http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-welcome.php

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Steve, good afternoon.

Thank you so much. I did not know this site and link...and am digesting the information slowly. I have tried to use the system presented there...but got no joy at all in identifying the correct place am looking for.

The RAF grid reference S.1676 is mentioned on the Combat Report of then Squadron Leader W. P. Green, DFC from 85 Squadron on the night of 26/27 July 1943 on File AIR 50/36/187.

From what I understood and from other sources, it seems the combat ocurred close to Dunkirk or on the Belgian border.

According to the site you passed me (http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/grillesj/norddeguerre.htm) the Grid Reference should have been mentioned either as vG or qC; and not as S.1676, as we do have on the Combat Report.

When using vS.1676 I got a coordinate somewhere deep in the middle of the Bristol Channel...not at all related to the actual combat of S/L Green, DFC....who claimed a Ju 88 from 1(F)/121 that night....

I have tried other variations, but invariably I got nowhere close to the French coast, as mentioned on the combat report!.....

Any clues or other help?

Adriano

[SteveR]

Using that site I get S1676 as being just north of Paris on the Nord de Guerre grid.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Steve,

Something is not fitting here...the combat report says the machine crashed down on the sea (combat and "flamer" was witnessed by another 85 Squadron Norwegian crew on a similar patrol that same night). The Ju 88 burned over the sea for circa 5-6 minutes....My own guess is that it was near the border of French and Belgium coast...I used the Nord de Guerre grid and got the same position as you did...which did not fit on the Combat and night activity here.

If we look at the Diagram of the grid used over the British territory ("Modified British System") one can guess (I am guessing) that to the right of the wR grid, that could exist the wS grid (unless this merged with the French Nord de Guerre grid), which would fit nicely on the approximate area of the combat....IF that wS grid indeed existed...that would be the one.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

LW seems to have reported the Ju 88 D-1 lost at the Pl.Quadrat 22-71-4 (seems to be a Kriegsmarine code, according to this site: https://www.gyges.dk/reporting_grids.htm

[Adriano Baumgartner]

A friend of mine suggested it could be French Lambert Zone 1
vS1676

has roughly (*) the following geographical coordinates :

Latitude : 49° 09' 48'' N
Longitude : 2° 55' 57' W

which equivalent in decimal degrees are :
Latitude : 49.16338 °
Longitude : -2.93253 °

That would be somewhere to the North of St. Brieuc....which seems a very very good possibility.

[Chris Goss]

St Brieuc is nowhere near Dunkirk or the Belgian border and in any case far too west for 85 Sqn’s hunting ground

[SteveB]

Hello again

Clearly the website is not providing an easy answer sorry about that. I would say that it is always possible a mistake was made in the combat report. In his book https://www.amazon.co.uk/RAF-Fighter.../dp/1906592071 John Foreman records that the claim was made "25 miles East of Ramsgate". There is no info about his source and it is not easy to fit that in with the grid reference.

Steve

Edit the link originally posted was to the wrong book... corrected now

[Nick Beale]

The database of Mosquito claims for enemy aircraft has a claim for a Ju 88 but adds this:

More likely to have been Do 217 M1 6045-U5+GK of I/KG 2. Patrol time 23.35-01.20, time of claim 23.59. E/A may also have been of 3(F)./122, which lost a Ju 88 during a Nachtbilderkundigung (night reconnaissance) of the English southeast coast on 27 July. Pilot:Lt Robert Ziegler, Obs: Oblt Walter Salecker, Ofw Heinz Gärtner and Uffz Albert Rippel all KIA. However, as all were buried at Nieuwe Ooster begraafplaats at Amsterdam on 17 Aug 43 (Uffz Rippel washed ahore on the beach of Noordwijk on 14 Aug 43), it seems that their aircraft crashed just off the Dutch Coast, as all were recovered/washed ashore. 430669 Ju 88 D-1 7A+BH 1.(F)/121 (Luftflotte 3) OPS (F) missing (100%) unk location (PLQ´22-71-4´) 27.07.1943 (crew of 3.(F)/122: F Lt. Robert Ziegler, B Oblt. Walter Saaleger, BF Ofw. Heinrich Gärntner and BS Uffz. Albert Rippel missing.

That still doesn't seem to fit with an 'S' map reference. I see from the 'Record of Events' that they were controlled by GCI Sandwich so they would probably have started out in the British Cassini Grid which had square 'wR' at the bottom righthand corner, off the Kent caost. It seems there was no 'wS', although it would have been in just about the right place.