Uffz. Karl Knichel, 8. JG 53 and 3. Jagdgruppe Süd, US attack at TOULON 29.04.1944

[JFK12+1]

Gentlemen.
my name is Jörg Frank Knichel and I am the grand-nephew of Uffz. Karl Knichel.
This weekend I received a copy of a letter that was sent to my great-grandfather Franz Knichel from Bottrop to inform him about the death of his son Uffz. Karl Knichel, born 29.10.1919.

In one of the threads by Dr. Prien I learned about a huge attack against Toulon (near Marseille in France) by US-bombers on the 29. 04.1944 at noon.
In the letter ist written, that Karl was shot down by US-Fighters that attacked him from the upper rear while he was attacking a 4mot bomber. He went down about 20km south of Port de Bouc at 12.20 hours.

Has anyone information about the attacking bombers or fighters or at least who shot him down?
Pictures and further information are attached to Karls profile.

Regards,

Jörg

[ouidjat]

Welcome Jörg,
and thank you for the information.


He was a former 8./JG53 pilot during 1943.
As for the accident you're talking about I have only two losses among them only one is possible:
a Bf 109 G-6 "Weisse 12" of 1./JGr. Süd, WNr.412113, RX+JA. 100% lost pilot's name not given. Cause: Absturz ins Mittelmeer um 12.00 Uhr. South Toulon (which means nothing except the combat did start in Toulon area and he crashed off Port de Bouc .. Or the contrary)
Nothing more i'm afraid but some guys here are better than I am.
..
As for the attachment do you know when and where this photo has been taken? Unit ?
Regards,
Franck.

[JFK12+1]

Hi Franck,

thanks for the quick answer.
Unfortunately I have noch further information.
I met a 2nd degree auntthis weekend and she showed me a small photobook called "Meine Dienstzeit".
Karls fiancé Alice put all photos into the album and wrote the commentaries.
Most of the photos correspond to the different functions he had in WWII. But this photo in the hangar..I have no idea....

Regards,

Jörg

[Peglar]

Uffz Karl Knichel 29.08.1943 westlich Acropoli Bf 109 G-6/Trop 18716 8./JG 53 verwundet Luftkampf mit B 26

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by JFK12+1

Hi Franck,

thanks for the quick answer.
Unfortunately I have noch further information.
I met a 2nd degree auntthis weekend and she showed me a small photobook called "Meine Dienstzeit".
Karls fiancé Alice put all photos into the album and wrote the commentaries.
Most of the photos correspond to the different functions he had in WWII. But this photo in the hangar..I have no idea....

Regards,

Jörg

Sorry Jörg but what I wrote above is wrong, that white 12 was flown by Unteroffizier Peter, Heinz, vermißt. (bv 144 und AERO)
and I have TWO WNr. !
412113 and/or 412213 So nothing for your great-uncle.
I apologize again.
Will do better next time,


Regards.


PS as for "Schwarze 13" it seems there is a confusion in the Kracker archiv. Nothing I can resolve yet.

[Xerumbe]

Hi !

From “FIFTEENTH AIR FORCE AGAINST THE AXIS “ (Kevin Mahoney “)

" One hundred fifty-three B-17s from the 5th Bomb Wing and 307 B-24s
from the 47th and 304th Bomb Wings, and the 451st, 460th, and 461st
Bomb Groups attacked the naval base at Toulon. One hundred forty-two
P-38s from the 1st, 14th, and 82nd Fighter Groups and thirty-six P-51s
from the 31st Fighter Group flew as escort. Weather caused the 456th
Bomb Group to return to base and smoke screens impaired bombing accuracy
as many bombs dropped fell in the city. The raid still damaged a
dry dock, the shipyard, the submarine base, and oil storage in the harbor,
along with the marshalling yard and a munitions factory. Generally intense,
accurate flak reached the bombers and at least six Me 109s attacked
the 2nd and 301st Bomb Groups until driven off by the Mustangs. Ten
more went after the 47th Bomb Wing before Lightnings arrived. More
fighters attacked two groups of the 304th and several FW 190s dropped
aerial bombs. The bombers claimed one destroyed and three probables.
The escort claimed ten destroyed, two probables, and seven damaged.
The fighters later had fourteen confirmed: nine to the 1st, four to the 31st,
and one to the 82nd Fighter Group. The 450th lost three aircraft and the
454th and 459th one each, the latter ditched. A P-51 from the 31st Fighter
Group also went down. »


There is the claims listing of the day (without the bombers claims):



Some over claiming

I hope it could help you a little bit.

1., 2. and 3./ JGr Süd and 1./Jagdlehrer-Überprüf.Gr. attacked the bombers this day. Bf 109 were all from JGr Sud and Fw 190 were from the both units.
I know 5 casualties for the Luftwaffe:

Bf-109 G-6 12 weisse 412113 1/JGr. Süd 20 km south of Toulon Uffz.Peter Heinz (killed)
Bf-109 ? 2/JGr. Süd Hyères Flugzeugführer Hans Dubied (wounded)
Fw. 190 A-4 9 weisse 145537 1./Jagdlehrer-Überprüf.Gr. 30 km south of Marseille Uffz Willy Reißig(MIA)
Bf 109G-6 13 schwarz ?/JGr. Süd 20km south of Port de Bouc at 12.20 hours. Uffz. Karl Knichel (MIA)
Fw 190 ? 1./Jagdlehrer-Überprüf.Gr. 30 km south of Marseille Uffz. Reinhard Wahl (MIA)

Best Regards.

JF

PS: @Jörg -> I have several questions to ask you about your ancestor. Could you contact me?

[JFK12+1]

How does this work? I do not see an email button?

Hi JF!

This is amazing.
this is exactly what I hoped to find out.
No Fighter at 12.20?
Maybe the gunners from the 4mots?
I will answer any question you have.
Right now I do not know how it works with mailing.
My Mailadress is: JFK@ewe.net
Is it allowed to post the adress.

Regards

JFK

[ouidjat]

Hi JFK and JF,


all detailed losses reports (only Bf 109s)
Karl Knichel loss reported in the Kracker Archiv source being ... JFK himself!
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/Kra...ase/?q=Knichel
The answer, if it does exist, should be in Flugbuch.


Enjoy

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Jörg,

Am not in position to help, but am help that INTERNET and this Community were of great help into the search about your relative.

Do try to find relatives of the US pilots who claimed that day....maybe on their Logbooks they wrote different information that the Squadron Diaries do not have....and you may find pictures of them too...so you can have a more broader picture.

Sadly...something that was really common around that time....a dozen or plus LW fighters against 400+ bombers and 100+ escort fighters....One needed Courage to take off against those odds, really....

Congratulations and keep going...you will find your answers here...and supporters too.

Baumgartner

[Adriano Baumgartner]

when reading "...am help"...understand "am happy"