Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi
Maybe what was wrtten by Sir Liddel Hart it is for you "the holy cow", it your point of view - not mine.

You do not know even your Russian sources prineted in 90-ties or after 2000.

When you read Mieltiuhov book - Upuszczonyj szans Stalina, Rakurs, Moscow 2002 it is evidently and several times written in the whole book.
Stalin had ordered to attack on Germany/Hitler on 12 VI 1941. This date was removed. Second date was about 15 July 1941, See. page 412

Soviet VVS RKKA had made several top's secret air mission over South-Eastern part of Poland to make reccon for future Russian invasion in May-June 1941, which was planed to be command by Zukov form South-Western Fornt. The command was erected a few days before 22 VI 41. Zukov got nomination for this post on 21 VI 1941

Russian had declared twice, openly army moblization, so called BUZ -bolszye uczebnyje zbory, 3-ed time was made top secret mobilisation, as a secret move (for about next 400.000 soldiers, also before 22 VI 1941).

When you look at marshal Shaposznikow book "The Armys' brain", you will find exactly and directly written, the mobilisation means the begining of war. This book was one of favourite for Stalin

Regards,
MirekW

PS
I do not like, when one man as so called "Igor" wants to talk, disccus, make any claims and fear to presnet his full name. More you are surprised!
That I call it as a idiot situation.
Yes, it is idiot situation for me

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

Hi
Maybe what was wrtten by Sir Liddel Hart it is for you "the holy cow", it your point of view - not mine.

You do not know even your Russian sources prineted in 90-ties or after 2000.

When you read Mieltiuhov book - Upuszczonyj szans Stalina, Rakurs, Moscow 2002 it is evidently and several times written in the whole book.
Stalin had ordered to attack on Germany/Hitler on 12 VI 1941. This date was removed. Second date was about 15 July 1941, See. page 412

Soviet VVS RKKA had made several top's secret air mission over South-Eastern part of Poland to make reccon for future Russian invasion in May-June 1941, which was planed to be command by Zukov form South-Western Fornt. The command was erected a few days before 22 VI 41. Zukov got nomination for this post on 21 VI 1941

Russian had declared twice, openly army moblization, so called BUZ -bolszye uczebnyje zbory, 3-ed time was made top secret mobilisation, as a secret move (for about next 400.000 soldiers, also before 22 VI 1941).

When you look at marshal Shaposznikow book "The Armys' brain", you will find exactly and directly written, the mobilisation means the begining of war. This book was one of favourite for Stalin

Regards,
MirekW

PS
I do not like, when one man as so called "Igor" wants to talk, disccus, make any claims and fear to presnet his full name. More you are surprised!
That I call it as a idiot situation.
Yes, it is idiot situation for me

Dear Mr.Wawrzynski,

thanks for your response. It is very nice, that I currently know what "historian base" have your work and your claims. I don't know, may be in Poland this sources looks as authentically but in circle of serioses russians historians( and I hope apparently of some groups in west, too) such books as Miljutinov are classified as junk. You are free use such works, but exept from wild fantasy of authors of these books, they contan nothing that could approve there theory.
I understand, why you didn't like Liddle Hard, he is not very likeable with pre WWII Poland. Ok, than I can propose the book of Taylor "World War 2". Or he is also "Kreml spy" ? Then I know, what you will like: OKH Chief General Oberst Fritz Halder's Diary. I can assure you: he is no communist, 100% !! Specially in Finnland case, you found many intresting things.

Best regards.

P.S. It is clear, that I didn't mark Shaposhnikow as "junk". And that the Stalin read this work show only, that he read the right books for the leader country. Each leader in each country, if he pay attention to defence policy must read this book. Even he is so "high potential" as G. Bush

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

To Mr Igor
Sorry you do not read exactly: you have not yet showed your name?
If not Mieltiuhov or next could be Niewiezyn (from Moscow If Iam right) or a few next, who are according - very smart - Mr Igor still Unknown name, are not a "junk's" historians?

As I see - Suvorov is "duble junk" in the eyes of such top professional "hisotrian" as want to see him/herself Mr Igor still Unknown name.


Regards
mw

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

To Mr Igor
Sorry you do not read exactly: you have not yet showed your name?
If not Mieltiuhov or next could be Niewiezyn (from Moscow If Iam right) or a few next, who are according - very smart - Mr Igor still Unknown name, are not a "junk's" historians?

As I see - Suvorov is "duble junk" in the eyes of such top professional "hisotrian" as want to see him/herself Mr Igor still Unknown name.


Regards
mw

I don't understand , why do you want to know my name. I'm not an author and professionals historians, I'm only reader and you are not able to buy my books because these doesn't exist And I have right to be here anonym and not show you my travel pass.
In my statement I only critisize your work and even not the work themself but your generally your point of view on the WW2 and your sources.

P.S. Russia in country, where many books will be published currently. But very little amount from them are serios based on archiv or other reliable sources. And this fact is not depend from political colors of there authors.
And Suvorov is not "double junk" only in my eyes and in many many books proved this thousend times.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi
Good point but If I am right this information had not been know for Stalin and his General Staff. After the war (1945) it was know from Finnish sources.
When you see the memories of marschal A.A. Novikov, the whole background for Russian air agression is more then well explained from the main peoples responsible for this act of air war. See more in his memories on the net in Russian language.

Regards
MirekW

PS
Main command post for the South-Western Front had been constructed since March 1941. from this command post was planned to invade Western Europe. Zukowa was nominated on this post on 21 VI 1941.

[Andrey Dikov]

>Good point but If I am right this information had not been know for Stalin and his General Staff.

What was known and obvious for Soviet High Command are the facts that German planes use the Finnish territory for attacking targets near Leningrad (it's obvious just from Ju 88 range calculation) and that German troops en masse were being transferred to Finnland via ports of Gulf of Bothnic (numerous intelligence and air recce reports) all the spring of 1941.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

What was known and obvious for Soviet High Command are the facts that German planes use the Finnish territory for attacking targets near Leningrad (it's obvious just from Ju 88 range calculation) and that German troops en masse were being transferred to Finnland via ports of Gulf of Bothnic (numerous intelligence and air recce reports) all the spring of 1941.

To be clear - for gen. A.A. Novikov's air staff was such a fear, that German could use Finnish territory as a base/ airstrips for air acttack from Finnish territory on/over Leningrad. Anyway there were not installed yet any German combat air units. A few Ju 88s had used Finnish terrory for returns flights from mission over Leningrad (on 22 VI 41).

The same was about Germans intelligence and their allies reccon's flights over Sovites (FAF and ARR flights). They had observed, since March 1941 in the near borders areas (up to about 200 km) gathering "red strom" - real danger of Stalin's agression plans (movements of land, air, navy units to the assoult possitions near the border line). This agression was planned first on June 1941 and moved on July 1941 + of course 2 official declared by Stalin BUZ of RKKA.
Army mobilization, according Soviet army strategy (code BUZ from 1939) in Stalin's era, means exactly the state of war, see marschal Shaposhnikov's text.

Regards,
mirekw

[Andrey Dikov]

>To be clear - for gen. A.A. Novikov's air staff was such a fear, that German could use Finnish territory as a base/ airstrips for air acttack from Finnish territory on/over Leningrad.

That’s not a fear, that was a matter of fact.


> Anyway there were not installed yet any German combat air units. A few Ju 88s had used Finnish terrory for returns flights from mission over Leningrad (on 22 VI 41).


Don’t flee from your own thesis in discussion. You offered to discuss what the Soviet HQ could have in their minds, what information they have to make a decision.

They have obvious reasons and legitimate casus belly.

(And that was the exact thing Germans wanted and strived for – to accelerate Finnland to join the war).


>A few Ju 88s had used Finnish terrory for returns flights from mission over Leningrad (on 22 VI 41).

As for further details of mutual cooperation: On 22.06 and after that. Not a few, but by formations of up to 12 Ju 88s of KGr.806. Not just on return flight, but by shuttle system. Not just Leningrad/Kronstadt, but bombing Hanko area and mine-laying Stalin Channel as well.

And by the way one of Ju 88 had a Finnish navigator on board.

And German plane escorted by Finnish fighters intruded Soviet territory before 25/6 and landed Finnish sabotage/special forces unit near Stalin channel.


>The same was about Germans intelligence and their allies reccon's flights over Sovites (FAF and ARR flights). They had observed, since March 1941 in the near borders areas (up to about 200 km) gathering "red strom" - real danger of Stalin's agression plans…

For years, I don’t discuss the matters sucked by Rezun out of his finger.

So, please, don’t continue with Rezun’s ravings. It’s in vain and only shows that you are not enough historically educated.

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

Anyway there were not installed yet any German combat air units. A few Ju 88s had used Finnish terrory for returns flights from mission over Leningrad (on 22 VI 41).

And again you try to desinform, see links
http://www.ww2.dk/air/lehr/lg1.htm
http://www.ww2.dk/air/seefl/kflgr806.htm

And Nowikow has his information also from POW pilot from 3./KGr806

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

The same was about Germans intelligence and their allies reccon's flights over Sovites (FAF and ARR flights). They had observed, since March 1941 in the near borders areas (up to about 200 km) gathering "red strom" - real danger of Stalin's agression plans (movements of land, air, navy units to the assoult possitions near the border line). This agression was planned first on June 1941 and moved on July 1941 + of course 2 official declared by Stalin BUZ of RKKA.
Army mobilization, according Soviet army strategy (code BUZ from 1939) in Stalin's era, means exactly the state of war, see marschal Shaposhnikov's text.
Regards,
mirekw

And again: you have no reliable sources, you have only fantasies book or even you take your information from relialble book and quote these wrong, because you know that nobody due the russian language can check the information that you provide

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

To Andrey: see and read the Novikov memories on page 50 (Moscow 1970). There is directly written who, when, why had decided about this particular Soviet air operation - it was Novikov's idea + his air staff, accepted by Stalin.

1. I have difficoult to talk with you becauses you do no know own Soviet sources, as is for example Novokov's memories, not only.

2. I do not know from FAF or Finnish landforces about re-arming (with bombs) of the Ju 88s, which landed in FAF's base on 22 VI. They of course had one FAF's navigator and were re-fueled for returned flight. I had written about this too as about the shot down of Ju 88 22/23 VI over Leningrad.
Re-aming, say again, with bombs and ammunition to attack Hanko, I do not every heard from Finnish side that was done between 22-25 VI 41.

Russian Rezun's inferiority complex

Czior s Rezunem. Rezun is not for me any holy's cow or icone! I do not mentioned him because there are too many errors in his books. He is not basic or fundamental as a source. Good, nice and pleasure reading and nothing more.


I do not undrestand, why you still and again supporting your thinking with Rezun's books (very not credible, written many errors, faults ect). Anyway the main point is still correct.

Not only he and also there are others in Russia like: Mieltiuhov, Niewizyn (both authors are "pure idiots", "ignorants" for you?) are writing about Stalin's plans to attack the West in summer 1941. Niewieżyn is better even then Mieltiuhov in his book.

See next also own two volumes of "1941 good. Dokumienty" Moscow 1998 - huge two books, Stalins plans and orders are clear visible.

Sorry and frankly but I have to say, you do not know your own Russian/Soviet sources, prepared by professional historians in the last 10 years in Russia, blinded by Rezun's books.
You in Russia have a total complex of Rezun. Relax, he is not any guru.

Next Russian (far away form him) authors telling the same: Stalin wanted to invade Hitler in summer 1941 (directly or indirectly).
BTW, for English readers Rezun is Suvorov and for example "Icebreaker" or few next ones - no matter which.

Regards,
MirekW


BTW
And German plane escorted by Finnish fighters intruded Soviet territory before 25/6 and landed Finnish sabotage/special forces unit near Stalin channel.
Yes I know (if I am right remeber) there were a few Brewsters for his cover and German plane could be He 115 (?).