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Old 10th May 2005, 06:31
edwest edwest is offline
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Hitler's Miracle Weapons, Volume 2

Curiosity. This is the beginning of any research. Gradually, true investigative skills are developed. And one must presume there may be something to be found. Without this, one should just turn around and go home.

This is the approach I am taking toward Hitler's Miracle Weapons, The Secret History of the Rockets and Flying Craft of the Third Reich, by Friedrich Georg. English language edition published by Helion & Company Ltd. in the UK.

I will begin by quoting a footnote in Volume One which showed that the Americans knew that development of a special version of the V-1 designed to attack the U.S. was completed in 1944. "OSS Report A-44 316, report 5985 of 7 November 1944."

In this second volume, the author convincingly shows that treachery and betrayal played a part in delaying the deployment of miracle weapons. The history begins during the First World War with efforts to build glider bombs. However, the war ended before these glider bombs could be completed. The time-line continues to 1922 and reproductions of a microfilmed report released by the U.S. Air Force in 2001. The title: "Germans & Rockets - 1922." It describes a meeting between General Billy Mitchell, Alfred V. Verville and the Air Attache, Ben Foulois. They then go on to meet a Dr. Oberth, who is referenced as the man who taught von Braun. Dr. Oberth mentions that he is working on the same propulsion systems that would emerge during the Second World War. Mention is made of a Soviet effort to convert TB-3 bombers ino remote controlled flying bombs, which were unsuccessfull. An attempt was made by the Italians using an SM.79 (A.R.P.) but this also failed. This was followed by the outfitting of the Macchi C.202 but the armistice was called before they could be used.

Next, a revelation. The first binary computer in the world is made by Konrad Zuse in 1938. An enhanced model Z-3 was used for ballistic calculations for the V-2. There is one period photo showing the first model Z-1, and two showing the Z-4! And a photo dated 1941 showing the Hollerith computer used by the SS. Another photo shows the Magnetophon, described as the world's first audio/video tape recorder, dated 1942.

The question is then raised as to what else was going in Peenemunde and its sister stations during the war. That the SS was going to play a greater and greater role in all secret weapons development is made clear. This was inevitable as mysterious sabotage became apparent in V-1s reaching their launching ramps after being inspected by German authorities but still having damage in inaccessible places. And also, the removal of heavy flak from Peenemunde 14 days before the British air raid, and which were not returned even after a warning was issued about the impending attack a few days before. It was clear to everyone on the ground that it would be coming. And after the war, the American Colonel Keck said that secret information about the installation was relatively easy to get.

Then a startling drawing from a special supplement to the Wehrmacht periodical Signal dated 1945. It shows the impact of a rocket (?) and 4 zones of destruction. A small side view is shown indicating relative damage in each zone. It is highly reminiscent to atom bomb blast effects as shown in publications produced in the U.S. in the 1950s.

The author continues his theme that atomic bombs were available and that existing V weapons were being improved or modified to carry them. There is a copy of another recently discovered American microfilmed document about underground V-1 research at the Wilhelm-Gustloff-Werke in Erbach/Odenwald. It is claimed that at least ten "high speed cells" were fired from the Zempin troop excersize area. He mentions a photo of an improved V-1 on its way to Antwerp, suggesting its use in combat operations.

There is then a reference to an improved V-1 called FVt 3, with a multiple incendiary warhead containing N-Stoff. The author believes this same weapon is referred to as the V-3 in an Allied CIOS report. He further asserts that the V-1 observed by British fighter pilots in 1945 was considerably faster than earlier versions.

Next the author touches on planned developments to improve the performance of the A-4. Included with this is a sketch of a nuclear rocket propulsion system. A program, the author asserts, which was played down after the war. However, during the war it was given the highest level of priority: SS special priority. The loss of Dr. Thiel due to the bombing of Peenemunde may have delayed development. Post-war, the Americans and Russians were working on atomic powered rockets. The author wonders if they succeeded, and at the time of his book's original publication (2003), he did not know. However, in 2004, an American science magazine revealed that a nuclear powered missile, referred to as Project Pluto, had been successfully test launched.

The reader is then shown a brief chart showing planned developments of the A-4 and A-9, including a small capsule for animals, and identifying post-war American and Russian development. The subjects of bacteriological, poison gas, isotope and nerve agents for use in V-1 warheads is then touched upon. A copy of a document extract dated 9 December 1944, and released by the NSA in 1978, makes explicit reference to the V-3 and "atom-splitting bombs." Reference is also made to "An ULTRA/MAGIC secret document of 9 December 1944 addressed to the deputy chief of the US General Staff [that] indicates that the American military authorities (and also the British- author's note) had also warned 'that the eastern coast of America could be the planned target for a blind attack by a type of missile. It is said to be called the German V-3. To be more precise, this weapon is based on the principle of the explosion of nuclear particles in the atom...'" Another NSA document declassified in 1978 refers to extremely fierce fires in London between October and the 15th of November. The author wonders if some V-2 warheads contained the inextinguishable N-Stoff.

Yet another document, this one by the Headquarters Mediterranean Allied Air Forces Target Intelligence Section. Reference is made to an oxygen bomb with a destructive effect of several kilometres. A radiological warhead for the V-2 is also referred to and a related post-war development of a similar warhead by the Russians. The warhead was called Geran.

Then he tells the story of a development of Dr. Mario Zippermayr in which a mixture of pulverized carbon and gases would create a tornado-like effect. Two sketches are shown of a giant bunker called "Salamander Z," possibly to include nuclear isotope generators. And then the reader is shown color paintings of an atomic warhead V-1, an Ar-234-C-5 carrying an Fi-103 D-1 with nerve gas warhead and various V-2 color schemes and types, including one with a nuclear propulsion system. Also shown are V-2 rockets with a missile attached that is very reminiscent of the American "Hound Dog" cruise missile. Models are then shown of various rockets and a ballistic missile launching version of the Type XXI U-boat. One then sees a photo of a V-2 with a corset middle, implying a special purpose.

The rest of the book provides circumstantial evidence for all manner of warhead types for the V-2. Another photo shows a V-2 on a flatbed railway car with hydraulic lifting arms. And there is more, which I will not mention here.

What Herr Georg is doing here is publishing fragments, parts of a puzzle. He does speculate, but in raising certain questions, I think he is stimulating legitimate research. As documents continue to be declassified and others surface, a portion of the history of the Second World War may be rewritten. It is not my point to ask anyone to follow this line of research, but certain questions should be asked. Recently, a German book was published saying that traces of radioactivity were found in Germany at the site of an atom bomb test. Impossible? Perhaps. And I will accept whatever answer turns up. But I like solving puzzles.


Regards,
Ed West

Last edited by edwest; 10th May 2005 at 18:39.
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Old 15th May 2005, 22:55
Richard T. Eger Richard T. Eger is offline
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Re: Hitler's Miracle Weapons, Volume 2

Dear Ed,

You and I have gone around before on Georg's books. Just sit back, reread your synopsis, and ask yourself if this sounds like the work of a luney or charlatan? There are so many holes in this story and so much pure crap that it isn't worth wasting time on.

Sorry about that, bud, but do get into an archive and read about the "real" war, not some luney's conjuring up titilating "facts".

Regards,
Richard
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Old 16th May 2005, 21:32
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Hitler's Miracle Weapons, Volume 2

Dear Richard,


You sound a bit emotional. Words like "looney" and "crap" are not what I would choose for a worthwhile discussion. I presented my review and added the caveat that I'm not trying to convince anyone to look into this, but it does raise interesting questions. Clearly, in your opinion, this sort of thing is not worth anyone's time. That's fine, but you don't address any specific points. Sounds like a knee jerk reaction based on emotion, not intellect. Sorry, Richard, but things are not discovered by the "there's nothing there" approach. Generally speaking, had I not ignored that little voice in my head telling me I would not find what I'm looking for I would not be a researcher today.


Regards,
Ed West



P.S.
My initial introduction to Luftwaffe research was started by people who were there, in Germany, as things were happening. These eyewitnesses had a lot to say (and no, I'm not making reference to V-2s and atom bombs here). Please don't assume my knowledge is strictly from books.

Last edited by edwest; 16th May 2005 at 21:37.
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Old 16th May 2005, 21:55
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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warning from the moderator, Re: Hitler's Miracle Weapons, Volume 2

OK, guys, let's cool it here. Keep the focus on the issue and not start personal attacks. You're both too good for that.

John b.
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Old 17th May 2005, 03:17
Richard T. Eger Richard T. Eger is offline
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Re: Hitler's Miracle Weapons, Volume 2

Dear Ed and John,

It just seems to me to be ridiculous to give Georg any credence. Okay, let's take one of Ed's descriptions of what is in Georg's book:

"Then he tells the story of a development of Dr. Mario Zippermayr in which a mixture of pulverized carbon and gases would create a tornado-like effect. Two sketches are shown of a giant bunker called "Salamander Z," possibly to include nuclear isotope generators. And then the reader is shown color paintings of an atomic warhead V-1, an Ar-234-C-5 carrying an Fi-103 D-1 with nerve gas warhead and various V-2 color schemes and types, including one with a nuclear propulsion system. Also shown are V-2 rockets with a missile attached that is very reminiscent of the American "Hound Dog" cruise missile. Models are then shown of various rockets and a ballistic missile launching version of the Type XXI U-boat. One then sees a photo of a V-2 with a corset middle, implying a special purpose."

Here we have reference to a V-1 with an atomic warhead. The closest thing we have for reference is "Little Boy" and "Fat Man", both requiring the lifting power of a B-29. Germany wasn't even that far along by war's end. So, exactly how was a V-1 supposed to lift an atomic warhead at the U.S.'s state-of-the-art, which the Germans hadn't even reached?

Let's say that all this Johannistal super-secrecy bit had even a smidgeon of truth. If the Germans really had tactical nukes, why did they hold back?

Next up is a V-2 with nuclear propulsion. The U.S. was testing nuclear rocket engines in the western U.S. in the 60's, then abandoned the program. Same with the nuclear powered B-36. The nuclear rocket engines were tested on the ground. As I recall, they utilized graphite cores which simply heated hydrogen. Radiation certainly had to be an issue. Another one would have been just what happens if one of these birds fails to launch properly and crashes close to home? We're certainly talking "big", probably way too large to fit at the tail of a V-2. And, we're talking of technology 15-20 years after war's end.

By the way, I come by some of this stuff quite honestly. I've been a member of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics since the fall of 1957 since Sputnik was launched. Back then, it was the American Rocket Society. I joined while in college, then joined the Institute of Aeronautical Sciences. The two societies merged shortly thereafter into what is now the AIAA. After graduating from college, I joined NASA in Cleveland, Ohio, which was then called the Lewis Research Center, now the Glenn Research Center in honor of John Glenn. I was an operations research engineer. My second assignment was to manage the testing at a hydrogen pebble bed heater, basically an induction heated graphite cylinder with graphite balls through which hydrogen passed, exiting through an instrumented, cooled copper exhaust nozzle. This was used for heat transfer studies and was the forerunner of a much larger facility at Lewis's Plumbrook location. The intention was to be able to test the heat transfer in the exhaust nozzle of a nuclear rocket engine without having to worry about radiation issues. I had a real interest in the nuclear rocket engine program and attended AIAA conferences where updates were presented.

But, back to the current discussion:

Maybe the Germans were great doodlers, jotting down whatever hair-brained possibilities they could think up. But, there is a difference between a serious development program like that of the Me 262 and something scribbled in a notebook. To me, giving credence to these scribblings, assuming they aren't fictionalizations of numerous hack writers or Georg's own fertile imagination, is even less of an historical tome than any "what if" book.

As the Me 262 is my subject of prime interest, I've seen the difficulties that had to be overcome to get even this system into production and operation. The most prominent German whizbang of WW II was the V-2, which required an enormous investment and manpower. Technically, it was a major accomplishment. Serious scientists and engineers worked very hard on this program to see it actually deployed in combat, and in fair numbers.

So, when we start bringing in the what-if whizbangs, which may have only been someone's doodlings - and that's actually far more credence than I want to give them, then write a book on them, then try to suggest that these efforts should be taken seriously by today's readers, you'll get the reaction I initially gave. That's not to say I don't have an interest in the advanced developments. Far from it. I have Leslie E. Simon's German Research in World War II, as an example, which seriously discusses some of the technology that was found, with numerous photos. In contrast, you'll find Georg's books full of photos of models, computer graphics, and color profiles, with very few actual photos and drawings of the period.

The impression I get is that Georg tried to take tidbits of this and that, much of dubious authenticity, or simply the imaginings of his mind, then tried to weave whole cloth out of extremely disparate pieces. You can't take "maybe believe A" plus "maybe believe B" etc., and have old Adolf with a fleet of nuclear bomb loaded bombers ready to attack New York. You don't add a bunch of conjectures together to come up with anything concrete.

To give an example, I'm going to quote just a bit from his first book:

"Suicide Bf 109 with 'new types of explosives'

It is not known if tactical atomic bombs were to be used by suicide pilots. Under that scheme, the Messerschmitt Bf 109 single piston-engined fighter, in the spring of 1945, may have been intended to serve as a carrier for miracle weapons.

On 18 March 1945 the commander of a fighter squadron in the Munster area received orders to take over and unload three railroad wagons. They had been sent to him, flew attacks in darkness, or in twilight. There targets had previously been precisely determined, and were at a relatively short distance from the front. The aircraft they flew, at the end of the war, were principally the Fw 190 and Ju 87. In those difficult flights the Ju 87, long since obsolete for daylight attacks, proved to be quite outstanding. On those missions the targets, which had been precisely determined, were marked with flares by other night bomber aircraft. Some of the attacks were guided by radar, i.e. the Egon procedure. So it is possible that some of the Seitenstätten Ju 87s were intended to be used on pathfinder duties, in the planned atomic night attack. Perhaps only a few aircraft from the squadron were actually to drop the bombs. Such an attack may have been previously practised elsewhere.

Unfortunately we have no information as to whether the eight Ju 87s had been converted for their planned special mission, nor whether they were normal production machines of the D-8 type. However, it is probable that the relevant documents and photographs could be found in some Allied archive."

Guys, I just opened the book and grabbed that at random. No references, nothing to identify units or people. Literally nothing that could be verified because the description is completely vague. He starts out suggesting the Bf 109 carry a tactical nuke, then just mentions the Fw 190, then seems to end with the venerable Ju 87 as having the honors. He mentions boxcars, then drops the subject. He drops in official sounding terms like Egon and Seitenstätten, like a name dropper at a party, but they aren't connected to anything. He wanders all over the map and literally says nothing. He conjectures like crazy. He suggests there might be documentation hidden somewhere, but he hasn't got it.

Folks, this isn't history, it is "crap".

Regards,
Richard

Last edited by Richard T. Eger; 17th May 2005 at 03:23.
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Old 17th May 2005, 10:55
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Re: Hitler's Miracle Weapons, Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest
Recently, a German book was published saying that traces of radioactivity were found in Germany at the site of an atom bomb test. Impossible?
Ed,
I guess, You are referring to the book „Hitlers Bombe“ of Rainer Karlsch. I can give You some additional information about this, since this book and its theses has been critically examined in a program of the German TV.

I know, that “science” on TV has to be looked on very critically, however here is a short summary:

Karlsch proposes two possible places for a German nuclear test: one on the island Rügen in the Baltic Sea and the other one in the mythical place Ohrdruf in Thuringia.

To prove or disprove these tests, some nuclear experts examined soil samples for residues of fissile material from both places. Results:

For the island Rügen there is no evidence at all, that that a nuclear test did happen there.

For Ohrdruf the case is different. According to the results of the examination of the soil samples, the nuclear experts are sufficiently certain, that “there is something nuclear”. So, traces of Uranium-235 as well as Lithium-6 were found. These isotopes are needed for a nuclear weapon, however, they also appear in smaller concentrations in nature. For a final statement, the soil samples of Ohrdruf will be scrutinized very closely in the following months.

And last but not least, according to the experts it is absolutely certain, that these nuclear traces cannot be relics of the Soviet army in the former GDR.



If You are into German, You can read a summary of the program on:

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/27/0,1872,2279195,00.html

To turn pages, you have to click on the text on the bottom of the page below “Weiter mit”

Regards
Robert
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Old 17th May 2005, 13:57
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Re: Hitler's Miracle Weapons, Volume 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard T. Eger

"Unfortunately we have no information as to whether the eight Ju 87s had been converted for their planned special mission, nor whether they were normal production machines of the D-8 type. However, it is probable that the relevant documents and photographs could be found in some Allied archive."

Folks, this isn't history, it is "crap".
Richard, you're too kind! He enters the realms of fantasy even at the mundane level of "normal production machines of the D-8 type." If the Ju 87 D-8 was a "normal production machine" how come I've never seen a single aircraft of the type mentioned in any loss or strength report of any Nachtschlachtgruppe, nor in any Allied report on any Ju 87 wreck in Italy or Northwest Europe?
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Old 17th May 2005, 18:06
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Hitler's Miracle Weapons, Volume 2

Thank you Robert. Your information is very helpful.



Regards,
Ed West
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Old 17th May 2005, 19:11
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Re: Hitler's Miracle Weapons, Volume 2

Thanks Robert, nice article.

Hitler's Bombe by Karlsch sounds like an interesting read, its on the wish list.
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