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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. |
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#1
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15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
Gentlemen,
I am seaching for an P-51 loss on 18th of July 1944 during the Mission to Memmingen. The "Air Crashes by Date"-List has a P-51D-5-NA, Serial No. 44-13381 W of Tutzing near Lake Starnberg (Starnberger See), which mateches exactly with the claim of Uffz. Wilhelm Krejci, 6./JG 27 (who was also killed in this engagement). There is no matching loss nor a MACR of a P-51D of 31.FG or 52.FG on this day in the regarding area, and all other P-51D-losses known to me are located in Austria (44-13450) or Italy (44-13495). Any ideas? Regards, Heuser |
#2
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
Hello Heuser
This is a problem I have been working on for the future Strategic Volume of Med Air War series. What I have to date is 4th FS52nd FG P-51 dove on enemy aircraft at 47 56N 11 21 E near Allmanshausen on the Starnberger See, on pulling out at 5000ft was seen to rip the starboard wing off managed to bale out; 1/Lt Raymond H Irvine, Jr POW Note Allmanshausen is a on the other side of the lake North east from Tutzing. What I have yet to find out is what serial number of the P-51 Irvine was in, and your listing of it being 44-13381 is a good lead if it can be confirmed, nor have I found a tme for the loss, but I suspect it is 1055 to 1100. Nor can I tie ripping the wings off with whatever Krejci may have done, but thats the fun of doing the research. Cheers Russell |
#3
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
Good Morning Heuser,
52nd F.G. / 4th F.S. / North American P-51 D-5-NA Mustang / # 44-13381 / Escort for Bombers to Friedrichshafen / Dogfight with Bf 109 - Unteroffizier Krejci - 6./JG 27 / Crash west of Tutzing, west of Starnberger See (Bayern) - Germany / 2nd Lieutenant Raymond H. Irvine Jr. / Pow - KG - Stalag Luft 1 Barth All the Best Fred |
#4
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
Good morning gentlemen:
The Individual Aircraft Record card (IARc) shows 44-13381 as MIA on 18 July 1944. All the other losses for this day are accounted for in any P-51D-5NA. There does not seem to be any good explanation as to why no MACR was filed for this incident. Hope that this helps a little bit. Ted51 |
#5
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
Gentlemen,
great - thank you very much for your help! Russell: time ist given with 10.50 in the "Air crashes..." list as well as Krejcis claim in MFB 6/C 2027/II, location is "W Tutzing" and "1 km W Tutzing" respectively. This loss is also mentioned without detail in one of the reports attached to MACR 6980 of B-17G 42-102927 (483.BG, 815.BS). Both P-51 of 332.FG were shot down by 12./JG 3 and Charles O. Herman (508.FS) most probably by Uffz. Hans Hahn, 3./JG 300, all around the same time. "...fun of doing the research": Sometimes I am rather done of doing the research... Regards, Heuser |
#6
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
Hello Heuser,
a quote from your post #1: …and all other P-51 D-losses known to me are located in Austria (44-13450) … No, not this plane. According to the German casualty documents (ME 1632) the crash time was 10.35 hrs on the Rantscher Weiher near Kohlgrub (since 1948 Bad Kohlgrub), 9 km west of Murnau, 8 km north of Oberammergau. The pilot 2nd Lt Leo Martin Walz was taken prisoner near the crashplace. In the ME 1631 file is documented: the 44-13381 crashed at 10.50 hrs 1 km west of Tutzing, south of the Taubinger Straße on the Bareislgraben, damage 95%. Another 31st FG loss concerned the Mustang 43-6854: loss time 11.00 hrs 2 km northwest of Grafenaschau, 5 km southwest of Murnau, 6 km northeast of Oberammergau (casualty no. ME 1672). The pilot 1st Lt Charles O Herman (308th FS, not 508th FS – see your post #5) was found dead on 24 July 1944 (ME 1589). Regards Leo |
#7
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
Quote:
thanks for the hint - I thought both locations "Unterer Lettenwald, 2 km NW Grafenaschau" and "Rantscher Weiher near Kohlgrub" were about the same a/c - because pretty close. An Austian secondary source has the Obersteig near Imst as location for Walz (Thomas Albrich: „Luftkrieg über der Alpenfestung 1943-1945: Der Gau Tirol-Vorarlberg und die Operationszone Alpenvorland", p. 253) Regrads, Heuser |
#8
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
There is also a mention of Raymond Irvine on a German page which lists 9 POWs transferred to Oberursel on July 21. The German number for his crash was listed there as KSU 1631.
https://www.fold3.com/image/29402886 The page is stuck in MACR 7415 for B-17 42-31583 (see page 39): https://catalog.archives.gov/id/91033122 |
#9
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
Hi all,
Lots of good information here. I have a question, I have Ogefr Alfred Schwarz of 12./ JG 3 making a claim for a P-51 and the other 12./JG 3 claims being for B-17, who made the second claim for a Mustang? Given the witness report from the 52nd noted Irvine ripped a wing off, didi he collide with Krejci? Russell |
#10
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Re: 15.USAAF Escort losses, 18. July 1944
Hi all,
332nd F.G. / 301st F.S. / North American P-51 C-5-NT Mustang / # 42-103635 / Dogfight with Fw 190 - Obergefreiter Schwarz - 12./JG 3 / Crash near the „Leyerhof“, 1,5 Km north of Oberammergau, southwest of Bad Tölz (Bayern) - Germany / 2nd Lieutenant Gene Cole Browne / Bailed out - Pow - Stalag Luft 1 Barth 332nd F.G. / 301st F.S. / North American P-51 C-10-NT Mustang / # 42-103947 / Dogfight with Fw 190 - Leutnant Romm - 12./JG 3 / Crash near Spitalhof, 2 Km northeast Kempten (Bayern) - Germany / 2nd Lieutenant Wellington G. Irving / KIA Fred |
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