Fairey Battle P21.., 103 Squadron RAF.

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo all,

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=110337666012

This recent Fairey Battle photo found by Ed West (Photos 14-1) raises some questions.
As is often the case the image is partial and the serial obscure. I am looking for help to identify this aircraft more precisely.

It is PM-K of 103 Squadron RAF. The serial number seems to be 'P21..'. As far as I can tell 103 Squadron only used 3 Battles in the 'P21..' range from September 1939 to 15 June 1940; P2163, P2191 and P2193. At first I thought it might be P2163 but the more I look at it the more I think it might be P2191.

Can anyone please determine whether it is P2191 or not ?
If it is P2191 then that perhaps causes problems with the codes and/or fates of several other 103 Squadron Battles.

I also believe the unidentified (by serial) Battle, PM-K, on page 181 of Peter Cornwell's THE BATTLE OF FRANCE, THEN & NOW is the same aircraft as in the photo above, though taken at a later date (missing tailwheel and grass is longer under the wings).

Any help welcome.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[paulmcmillan]

Must admit playing about wit it in Picasa it looks like P2191

[Peter Cornwell]

Martin/Paul,

Yes indeed, it is certainly P2191 which has already prompted necessary revisions to BoFrT&N since I first saw the photo on eBay. There are many photos of this aircraft (including that on p181) but, as far as I am aware, this is the only one to show the serial number with any degree of clarity.

Both Sheal and Gillet attributed this serial to the aircraft flown by Sgt Perry on May 14, 1940, and evidence from the ORB being lacking, these were my sources for the information as given in BoFRT&N. Gillet had also previously reported P2191 as being PM*J (his Betheniville book I believe) and this same source gave K9372 as PM*K. If this was indeed the case, then it would seem that the individual codes had subsequently been changed.

Thanks for the 'heads-up'.

[Martin Gleeson]

Thanks Paul and Peter for clarifying that problem.

However I am not sure that the codes for P2191 (PM-K) and K9372 (PM-J) were simply transposed in error by Gillet. There may be more.

K9372 crashed on May 10th after the crew all baled out, so presumably it was a total wreck.
K9374 force-landed on May 14th after flak damage.

Back in August 2008 Ed West (who else !) found 2 photos of a belly-landed Battle. It was coded PM-J as far as I can tell. Unfortunately I did not save these photos correctly, so I cannot now make out a serial on the side view. The E-Bay caption clearly stated this aircraft was K9374. Maybe someone has a better image and can check for the serial ?

Therefore it is possible that PM-J was K9374 and that the code letter for K9372 is now uncertain.

Again over to you gents.

Regards,

Martin.

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Martin,

I did not suggest that the code letters quoted by Gillet were transposed in error, though I can see how one could arrive at that assumption and which may well be correct. I prefer to accept that he had sound (photo?) evidence to support his statement and that the individual code letters had been changed (it happens) for some reason.

Whatever, at least we can now be sure that on the day it was lost P2191 was actually PM.K and I have no reason to contradict the conclusion by both Gillet and Sheal that it was the aircraft flown by Sgt Perry.

The only shot I can find of PM.J is attached and though unhelpful but may be the photo to which you refer ? If this was captioned as K9374 then I missed it. So if anyone out there in the ether can confirm this I too would be most grateful. K9372, as you correctly suppose, was a complete wreck but internal server problems are preventing me from down-loading a further image.

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo Peter,

Thanks for posting that photo of PM-J. It is not one of the two I referred to above but very similar. Frustrating that we cannot see a serial number, as opposed to depending on the E-bay caption. One of the two photos above is a close-up of the tail area and should show a serial. However I cannot help because I did not save it correctly.

Hopefully someone else can help with this.

Regards,

Martin.

[Peter Cornwell]

Thanks to Simon Paisley the identity of K9374 is confirmed as PM.J.

[Iain Torrance]

K9374 is PM-J the Sgt Perry a/c crash landed near Machault very near Betheniville. There are a lot of photos of this plane including in the Gillet Betheniville book. Have also seen photos with attribution bei Machault (zwischen Sedan und Reims)

I've not got Gillet's book in front of me but I recall he places PM-J at Couroy (very close to Machault) but cites a different serial no.

Perry DFM rec:
PERRY, Charles David (561615) Sergeant (Pilot)
D.F.M. (immediate) London Gazette 14 June 1940
Recommended 18 May 1940

This N.C.O. was seriously wounded by two bullets in the thigh and stomach during a low flying attack against the enemy on 14.5.40. Sgt Perry piloted his aircraft to the vicinity of his base until finding himself fainting he force landed.The action of this N.C.O.showed great courage and stamina.
Sadly he died in England a month later of bullet wounds to the stomach.

P2191 is PM-K the Fitzgerald crash landing. Location is not known to me only that it was in a forward area, possibly in a Fench Sector.
I have copy of his logbook which confirms P2191, a phoney war photo which ties P2191 to PM-K and the recent German photo looks like further confirmatory evidence.

FITZGERALD, Thomas Bernard (40783) Flying Officer (Pilot)
D.F.C. (immediate) London Gazette 14 June1940
Recommendation:

In May, 1940, Flying Officer Fitzgerald carried out a successful and daring low flying attack against the enemy at Sedan. During a second raid a few days later, he was wounded but succeeded in effecting a forced landing and saving the lives of his crew

Fitzgerald was wounded in the arm and evacuated to England. The DFC rec is wrong in refering to lives of his crew - he was flying with only one crew.

I pointed out the above to Gillet a while back.

Be very grateful if anybody has info on the PM-K crash location.

Best wishes to all.

Iain

[Martin Gleeson]

Thank you all for generously helping to resolve these little problems. Another couple of pieces completed in the great jigsaw that is the French campaign.

Regards,

Martin.

[Revi16]

I've found these pics on the internet in 2006.

Regards,
Mike