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  #1  
Old 18th June 2017, 22:26
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Hello,

It is mentionned in various sources that Gabriel Barbé claimed a victory with AC5 or 5AC (a French Navy Air Force unit). Can someone provide details ?

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Old 18th June 2017, 23:09
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

According to the book "les victoires de l'aviation de chasse française volume 3 (5-24 juin 1940)", by Arnaud Gillet, on 17 June 1940 premier maitre Gabriel Barbé, a monitor in the fighter school that integrated three days later the AC5 squadron when it was created, led his section to intercept a German bomber over Saint-Nazaire. A report from the French Navy says he was probably destroyed, but no claim was apparently filled by Barbé, and 1 Sqn RAF was also involved possibly. Gillet identifies the German aircraft as a Ju 88 of 3./KG 30 that came back to base with a dead and two wounded aboard.
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:51
MarkRS MarkRS is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

P.M. Barbé shot down an He111 on 19/6/40 defending the escape of the French battleship Jean-Bart, his only claim in the war. No Moranes were in combat over the Lancastria on 17/6/40, the Hurricanes were misidentified by the Germans. The 2 incidents are sometimes confused in the historical record as is the type of German aircraft over the Lancastria. The French Navy unit AC5 or 5AC was never in operation. It was most likely proposed but the speed of events at the time meant that it never actually existed.
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  #4  
Old 19th June 2017, 10:03
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Thanks guys !

Gathering data on the claims of the Aéronautique Navale is hard to me (I have no specific book dealing with this topic). Can you confirm me for the period 1 September 1939 to 25 June 1940 that the fighter victories are, by units and aircraft :

AC1, AC2 & F1C : 7 victories with Potez 631 (another source quote 8, but do not mention the type but as the unit was also equiped with Bloch fighters, the two anwser may be compatible)
AC 3 : 4 victories with Bloch 151/152 (another source quote 3)
AC 5 : 1 victory with MS.406

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Old 19th June 2017, 10:12
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Mark/Laurent

Lucien Morareau agrees with Laurent regarding the unit.
AC5 was created on 20 June 1940 from teachers and pupils of the Fighter School at Hourtin (Cours de chasse). It certainly was in action since some recorded incidents happened already the same day it was formed.

The French Navy did not (perhaps surprisingly) have any system for victories, so there is no official list or anything you can rely on, which means all details published must have been pieced together from other sources.

In an earlier work Morareau does not list any Aeronautique Navale claims after 15 June 1940. Possibly because he did not at that time have anything reliable on the Cours de chasse. However in his later work he does mention that the unit was in action on 17 June 1940 to protect 'Jean Bart' when it departed Saint-Nazaire. No claims were made that day.

However on the 19th (as Mark also states) he notes a damaged claim by one of the intercepting Morane 406s over a He 111, but no name listed. Since my French is what it is ( ), I am not quite sure if he means if the He 111 was abandoned by its crew or if the chase was abandoned by the French fighters.

I don't know where Gillet has found his evidence regarding the date 17 June but if I have to make a choice I would say the date 19 June is the more reliable. I have great faith in Lucien Morareau and his work. But again there is no official data to rely on here!

Cheers
Stig
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Old 19th June 2017, 10:26
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Alfred

Since Aeronautique Navale did not have any official system for counting claims I don't know if we should follow the system used by Adl'A or not.

In total (up to and including 15 June 1940) pilots from AC1, AC2, AC3 and F1C claimed 9 certain, 5 probables and 3 damaged aircraft. However since there were on two occasions more than one pilot making the claims, you could also arrive to 11 certain claims, 5 probable claims and 3 damaged claims.

Of course the claim by Cours de chasse is additional. As stated the unit was formed on 20 June, so regardless if they made a claim on the 17th or 19th it was not made under any AC5 flag.

If you send me your e-mail I will scan the page I have with full details given by Morareau.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 19th June 2017, 10:26
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik
However on the 19th (as Mark also states) he notes a damaged claim by one of the intercepting Morane 406s over a He 111, but no name listed. Since my French is what it is (), I am not quite sure if he means if the He 111 was abandoned by its crew or if the chase was abandoned by the French fighters.
If you want you can copy what Lucien Morareau wrote, me or any other French member of the forum would clarify that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik
I don't know where Gillet has found his evidence regarding the date 17 June but if I have to make a choice I would say the date 19 June is the more reliable. I have great faith in Lucien Morareau and his work. But again there is no official data to rely on here!
I have read not much from Gillet and can't hardly judge his work but he is a controversial character to say the least. I have read a little more from Lucien Morareau and the quality of his works is unquestionable.
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Old 19th June 2017, 10:30
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Alfred

If you give me your e-mail I will scan both relevant pages.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 19th June 2017, 13:27
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

The pages were indeed both revelant.

I would translate the part we were talking about as :

"On 17 June, the five MS.406s of the Cours de Chasse flown by de Roquemaurel and his instructors, were sent to Escoublac to protect the Jean Bart when it departed Saint-Nazaire. During 3 days, they carried a certain number of guard missions and on the 19th, they intercepted 3 He 111s. In the ensuing combat, one of the Morane was hit by french ground fire, which was firing at everything. The fighter was able to land at Escoublac but was too much damaged and had to be left behind."

So Lucien Morareau credits the Aéronautique Navale of 9 victories during the period (7 by the Potez of AC1, AC2 & F1C and 2 by the Bloch fighters of AC3). In an old issue of Aero Journal, Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt give a total of 12 (8 for AC1, AC2 & F1C and 4 for AC3, AC4 & 5AC). But considering the fact there is no real official reccords, I don't think we will have an official definitive number.

Thank you all.
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Old 19th June 2017, 17:02
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Ooops

So he was referring to their own aircraft when it came to the loss....

Doesn't look like I ever will get that 'translation clasp' after all....

Sorry about that!

Cheers
Stig
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