Claims for 254 Sqn Losses 6th July 1940

[andy bird]

Sorry, conflicting info during an engagement between 10:00 and 10:50 hours off Stavanger, Norway. When two Blenheims were shot down.

L8842 credited to Lt Zickler of 3./ZG76

also

N3640 credited to Oblt. W. Moritz 4./JG77

but also have

N3640 credited to Lt Rott 6./JG7

With thanks in advance.

Andy Bird

[Chris Goss]

Zickler was Gefr Erich not Lt. His claim was 1050 hrs west of Stavanger whilst flying a Bf 110 coded M8+GL. Does this help?

[steve sheridan]

Hi Chris, Zickler returned from ops on the 15.8.40 with a damaged a/c,
his Bf Gefr.Josef Pudlik? was wounded in the engagement.
Do have any further info on this incident, perhaps a/c identity or time of combat taking place?

Best regs,
Steve.

[Chris Goss]

I am afraid I have nothing further on this incident

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andy

N3640 seems very much unlikely. This was a Short Stirling with 7 Sq and lost on a totally different date.
According to Shores P6950 was lost at this date (and he lists this as lost to Uffz Zickler, who seems to have held many ranks this date...)

Shores also list a Hudon as claimed by JG 77 but none is known to have been lost.

Since you don't list your sources it is difficult to disect your information

Cheers
Stig

[steve sheridan]

Ok Chris, thanks.

Best regs,
Steve.

[andy bird]

Dear All,
Apologies for my absense, may I thank you Stig, Chris for your comments and help.

Andrew

[Peter Cornwell]

No.254 Squadron lost two Blenheims that morning (L8842 and P6950) one of which was certainly that claimed by Uffz Erich ZICKLER of 3./ZG76 west of Stavanger-Sola at 10.50 (CET). As both Blenheims had apparently taken-off from Sumburgh at 08.30 (BST) it is difficult to reconcile the loss of either with a claim by Oberlt Wilhelm MORITZ of 4./JG77 west of Stavanger recorded at 07.01 (CET).

Further details of the British casualties from these two aircraft can be found in Ross McNeill’s excellent Coastal Command Losses Vol.1 where I note he credits respective Blenheims to ZICKLER and Lt ROTT of 6./JG77. An alternative source jointly credits ZICKLER and Lt Frank-Werner ROTT of 5./JG77 with one of the Blenheims and MORITZ with the other which rather neat conclusion conveniently ignores the surviving documentary evidence. As for ROTT, I can find no record of his claim nor does it figure in the definitive works of Jochen Prien.

[Kapper]

Gents,

It seems that most sources have Zickler as the victor of P6950 but the real contention is over who claimed the second Blenhiem (L8842).

May I suggest a possible solution to this issue! I think you will find that II./JG 77 made only one (1) claim on this date. The question is by who? Lt. Rott was listed as the victor in Jochen Priens original works on JG77 while Oblt Moritz is listed as the victor in the newer works in the JFV series. I would suggest that several follow up works have referenced Jochen Priens JG77 work thus crediting Lt. Rott with the claim.

If you compare the claims listing in JG77 to the JFV series, you will note that in most cases (not all) that the number of claims made on a certain date remain unchanged in both listings but some of the names of the pilots and details have changed. To me it appears that Jochen Prien had initially sourced headquarter reports summarising the number of claims on each particular day but not the individual details, therefore he tried to match the date with details from dairies etc. when he wrote the original works on JG77 many years ago (I imagine this was not an easy task).

Jochen has now released the newer JFV series with Oblt Moritz as the victor I assume based newer information that has become recently available. Of all Jochen Priens earlier works (JG1, 3, 11, 27, 77 unit histories) it appears that the JG77 history is the least accurate and I think I read somewhere (it could have been an earlier TOCH Forum posting) that he was looking at rewriting this history.

Anyway I would put Oblt. Moritz as the victor based on the newer works in the JFV series.

I’m sure Jochen can correct any comments/assumptions I’ve made.

Regards,

Craig...