Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?

[Rolfeb]

Hi All,
Had a closer look today through M. Holms list and found a claim, dated November 18. 1944 by German Pilot Ziesmann. He claimed to shot down a P-47 at 10:51 in French area Alsace/Vosges.
As I couldn’t find the related P-47 your help is very much appreciated. I’m searching place of crash but also pilots name and unit as well as fate of the pilot.
Thanks a lot in advance
Rolf

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
The following may help ?


18th November, 1944

P47's
8th AAF
42-26831 - MACR 10332
42-28623 - MACR 10333
Salvaged
42-25517, c/l on an RAF Base in Belgium.

P47's
9th AAF
42-28911 - MACR 10506
44-20085 - MACR 10509
42-76484 - MACR 10566
42-28892 - MACR 10571
44-20084 - MACR 10572
44-20090 - MACR 10573
42-26462 - MACR 10575
44-19862 - MACR 10579
42-27308 - MACR 10865
42-29198 - MACR 10866
42-28373 - MACR 10867
Salvaged
42-29396
And
Unknown - Pilot 1Lt. D. B. Tuck - 358FG/366FS.

Details from 8th & 9th AAF Losses Vol 5.

Good luck
Alex

[Tony Kambic]

I extracted these from Didier's P-47 database, listing only coming down in France. Two of these indicate Flak, so seems there are two possibilities.

Tony

42-27308 P-47D-27-RE 405th FG 510th FS 2Z-?
MACR 10865 - 18/11/44 vers Dieuze
Pilote : James A. Pelletier - Parachuté & KIA - Combat aérien

42-29198 P-47D-28-RA 405th FG 510th FS 2Z-?
MACR 10866 - 18/11/44 vers St Avold
Pilote : Hugh R. Miller - KIA - Flak

42-28373 P-47D-26-RA 405th FG 509th FS G9-?
MACR 10867 - 18/11/44 vers le Val-de-Guéblange
Pilote : Edwin G. Goss - KIA

44-20085 P-47D-28-RE 405th FG 511th FS K4-?
MACR 10509 - 18/11/44 vers Sarreguemines
Pilote : Monroe S. Sams - POW - Flak

[Col Bruggy]

Hello,

Summary of the 405th FG missions on 18 November, 1944:

The 18th was a good day with the 405th flying 104 sorties; however, four aircraft, along with their pilots , were lost. During that day the 35th and 26th Infantry Divisions were supported. Over Dieuze, the 510th FS, led by Captain N. T. Nonnenmacher, were jumped by 40-50 ME-109's. In the wild melee one ME-109 was destroyed and one damaged.Lieutenants Hugh R. Miller and James Pelletier, of the 510th FS, were lost in that encounter with the Luftwaffe. Sixteen aircraft of the 509th FS, led by Captain C. L. Van Etten, attacked M/T, ammo trucks, railroad cars, and a railroad station in the area of Saargemund-Kaiserlautern. Heavy damage was inflicted upon 200 freight cars, each loaded with two half-tracks. It is estimated that approximately 50% were destroyed. Second Lieutenant Edwin Goss, 509th FS, was seen to dive into the ground, cause unknown, but he was probably hit by flak. Captain Monroe Sams bailed out because of flak damage to his aircraft ans was observed safely on the ground during the 511th FS attacks in the Saargemund-Kaiserlautern area.

See:
Thunder Monsters Over Europe A History of the 405th Fighter Group in World War II and The Christchurch Squadrons.
Nolte,Reginald G.
Yuma:Sunflower University Press,1989 (2nd Printing).
pp.59-60.

Col.

[focusfocus]

Hello Rolf

Who is Ziesmann?

Michel

[Horst Weber]

Good Question

The time of the Nonnenmacher claim is 11:55 - 12:45 hrs. The German time was on this November 18th, 1944, equal to the British time. Is it possible, that Ziesmann met French P-47's ?.

Best wishes

Horst Weber

[Chris Goss]

I seem to recall that French ac were active on this day at this time but need to check my notes

[Rolfeb]

Originally Posted by focusfocus

Hello Rolf

Who is Ziesmann?

Michel

Ziesmann was a Pilot of 2./NAGr 13

[Rolfeb]

Hi All,
thanks a lot for your great response.
Based on your answers I would like to add some more comments.

Ziesmann flew in 2./NAGr. 13. As far as I understand, they usually flew with 2planes only during their reconnaissance flights. May be it wasnt a dog fight with 20plus planes.
In addition the time given by Zismann is 10:51am.
Probably we can exclude some of the P-47 because fley in the afternoon and also because of the area.
Thanks a lot in advance
Rolf

[Chris Goss]

All Ziesmann said is that he was on a way back from a mission with Fw Hanns Zimmermann when they carried out a high speed bounce on some P-47s, shooting one down but during which the tail of Zimmermann's ac broke off. It flipped up vertically and he just managed to bale out, his chute opening just before he landed in a marsh. He suffered 24 fractures. BTW he confirmed that his St Kap was Messner. I have nothing on the P-47 apart from possibly a French link?