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Old 13th January 2011, 20:17
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: background color, origins & relation to personal insignia of Adolf Galland

Hello,

Working through information on the photos of Bf109E-4/B "White N" of 4.(S)/LG2 down at Langenhoe, Essex, on 29.10.40, and thereafter widely displayed in Scotland, the following questions/problem arose:

1) The insignia for this unit is very nearly the same as the "Mickey Maus" insignia used by Adolf Galland on his Bf109s while Gesch Kde of JG26 in 1940-41. It appears that he carried the insignia used on his Hs123 while he was the StaKap of 4.(S)/LG2 during 1939 and into early 1940, when he transferred to the Stab of JG27. We don't have a photo of his Hs123 (that I know of), L2+AM, but we do have photos of several other examples, including L2+BM, that apparently show this being used at least back to the Polish Campaign of 9.39. So, did Galland, as Sta Kap, chose the insignia for 4.(S)/LG2 sometime in 1939, and then he just later carried this forward as his personal insignia? Could it even have been a personal insignia on his Hs123, L2+AM, which was then adopted as the Staffel insignia? What is the original source of this design? Obviously it's based on the Disney "Mickey Maus," but where did this specific design, with a cigar in its mouth, originate? This could well relate to Galland's habit of smoking cigars, which would suggest a personal insignia of his design or done for him.

2) On images of this insignia in 1939-40 on 4 Staffel a/c, both Hs123s and Bf109Es, most show this insignia apparently with a yellow circular background. This yellow background is confirmed by the report of the crash inspector for "White N" down on 29.10.40. "Crest: black and white Mickey Mouse holding axe in one hand and large pistol in the other, all on yellow dic." However, the standard reference work (Ketley and Rolfe) shows this insignia on a blue circular disc. Photos of this on a 109 from the second half of 1940 (yellow nose) may show a blue background, but these could also show a plane from early 1941 in the Balkans, or just reflect the characteristics of the film used and/or lighting conditions. Or did the color of the circular background change at some point from yellow to blue?

Anybody have any insights or information on these issues?

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Old 20th January 2011, 15:57
DaveWest99 DaveWest99 is offline
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Re: 4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: background color, origins & relation to personal insignia of Adolf Galland

I believe that Galland started the war as StaKap of 5.(S)/LG2 and took over as StaKap of 4 staffel when the GruppenKommodore was killed in mid September and Otto Weiss (the original StaKap of 4.(S)/LG2) took over. Photos from a private collection that I've seen, show Hs123s of 5.(S)/LG2 taken just before or at the very beginning of the Polish Camaign with 5.(S)/LG2's emblem and II.(S)/LG2's modified camouflage scheme. I would guess, therefore, that 4.(S)/LG2 (and 6.(S)/LG2) also had their emblems before the war started, ie before Galland joined 4 staffel. Galland took this with him when he went to JG26, but deleted the background shield and added a cigar. He also had a, different, Mickey Mouse emblem on his He51 in Spain.

The majority of photos of 4.(S)/LG2 Hs123s published in books or on the internet that I have, show a light shield colour, though a few show a darker colour. Unfortunately, most are from the starboard side and only 3 that show the port side also show the octane triangle (known to be yellow). Of these 3, one shows both the shield and the octane triangle as a dark shade (presumeably an orthchromatic file), one seems to show the shield as dark and the octane triangle lighter though the quality of the image is poor, and the third, a photo of crashed L2+BM, seems to show both with a light colour, but the scan I have is small. From this and the written description from the RAF report, I would suggest that the colour of the shield of 4.(S)/LG2's emblem was yellow and not blue as has been assumed in the past.

My first recollection of this emblem was in Volume 1 of Karl Ries's 4 part series in the mid to late 60's. In it, it is shown with a blue background and labelled II/SG1 with a note saying that it arose from 4.(S)/LG2. Soon after Airfix released their 1/72 Bf109E with the blue emblem (I think ESCI's 1/48 Hs123 also included the blue emblem) and everybody, including myself, assumed it to be so. When II(S)/LG2 became SchG.1, the 4.(S)/LG2 emblem was kept for the whole Gruppe, but with the shield in the staffel colours. The Hs123s were initially transfered to the 4th staffel in the Gruppe which would have had a blue shield. Maybe this could explain it.

One other point, the yellow used for the engine cowling(RLM 27) was a different yellow to that used on the emblem(RLM 4). RLM4 would appear darker than RLM27.

I would welcome other's thoughts/comments.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention Larry. I will send you a personal e-mail in the next day or so regarding a photo of L2+AM.
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Old 20th January 2011, 19:05
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: 4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: background color, origins & relation to personal insignia of Adolf Galland

Dave,

Thanks for your knowledgeable and thoughtful comments. I'm looking forward to a further exchange of information with you.

Regards,
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Old 20th January 2011, 21:53
Andy Saunders Andy Saunders is offline
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Re: 4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: background color, origins & relation to personal insignia of Adolf Galland

Larry

For what its worth, I heard tell of a question put to Galland at a fighter pilot symposium about the origins of the Mickey Mouse emblem. Evidently there was hushed expectation, waiting on some great revelation from the man, when he shrugged and said, quite simply, "Well, I just liked Mickey Mouse, thats all!"

This was from someone who was present. I have no reason to doubt his story!
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Old 20th January 2011, 22:53
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: 4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: background color, origins & relation to personal insignia of Adolf Galland

Andy,

Sometimes in our efforts to find complex motivations behind things in life we make things far more complex than they are. Thanx for taking the time to respond.

Regards,
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Old 21st January 2011, 00:41
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hihotte hihotte is offline
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Re: 4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: background color, origins & relation to personal insignia of Adolf Galland

Larry,
you ask for the background of the MM, fact is, Galland brought the emblem back from his duty with Legion Condor in Spanish Civil War. It was the emblem of 3/J88, a strafing and ground attack squadron equipped with Heinkel He 51. The Inventor was the former StKp Douglas Pitcairn. Galland upon return had to go back to Ground Attack Units in the Luftwaffe, simply because of his experience gained in Spain in this "trade", although he wanted to be a fighter pilot (see The First and The Last), authored by him after the war. I am not surprised that he did not mention Pitcairn in the pilot symposium. He was not only an able fighter pilot and leader (Fighter General) but also a show star and he liked and lived this role to the last minute of the Third Reich. I own lots of images with him in the center, dressed in furred white leather batlle dress or white leather jacket with all the brass, while the men in the east in winter stood there in their thin overalls, freezing to stone. Of course he improved the original emblem to fit into his personality, but the idea of the emblem came from Pitcairn.
See attached image scan
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Old 21st January 2011, 19:02
Many Souffan Many Souffan is offline
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Re: 4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: Myths and legends

Hello Larry.

I work about this subject since almost 20 years.

M subject is the use of characters of cartoons in all european air forces between 1935 and 1945

And about The Mickey Emblem of J/88 there are many myths and legends.

With the crisis in 1929/30 Walt disney tried the Europa market. And at this time there were 2 open doors Germany & Italy. In the middle of thirties, the walt Disney company made 40% of his market in Europa.

The Characters of Disney were very succesful in Germany.

From the beginning to october 1936 there were no staffeln in J/88. The 6th november, it was created 4 staffeln, without a specific emblem for each staffel. It was common that every pilot of He 51 had a personal insignia. When he arrived in Spain Douglas Pitcairn choose, by proposal of his mechanic Mickey mouse as his personal insignia.

In march/ april 1937, Gunther Lützow became Staka of 2/J88 and with the arrival of the first 109 he choose the Top hat as emblem of his staffel.

In the same time Douglas Pitcairn became staka of 3./J88 and he took his personal insignia for the emblem of his unit.

The same thing for the 1./J88, Harro Harder became the new staka aznd took his personal insignia, the Swastika for emblem for his unit, it was too Much for the German HQ and the swastika became a little white cross in a black disc.

The very first personal of Douglas Pitcairn was a strange mixture between the Oswald Lucky rabbit and Mickey Mouse.

When "Dolfo Galland" replaced Douglas Pitcairn at the head of 3.J/88 he thought he will have the new 109 but the unit kept the He 51, but nothing. So he choose ( with a good sense of humor) a new Static Mickey pointing the sky which seem's to say "oh! look they flew 109!"

When Molders replaced galland he didn't want in first to keep Mickey for emblem. He accepted after to have a new Mickey running with a black glove and a revolver.

When Schmoller-haldy replaced Molders he kept the same Mickey but all in black.

When he came back in germany he did a pin with a black Mickey in a blue disc reprenting the blue sky of Spain.

When Douglas Pitcairn became staka of 3/JG51 he choose his Mickey in ablue disc. the same thing for galland when he bacame staka of 4 (S)/ LG 2, he choose a personal Mickey in a Blue disc, to remember the blue sky of Spain.

I must stop now I will finish later
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Old 24th January 2011, 09:56
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: 4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: background color, origins & relation to personal insignia of Adolf Galland

Hello,

Thanks all for your comments. There is another Galland problem I'm encountering. Some sources indicate that he was originally assigned to 5.(S)/LG2 on July 1, 1939. However, his FB entries, which begin on Aug. 9, 1939, show only flights in Hs123s of 4.(S)/LG2, almost always in L2+AM. So, if he was in 5 Staffel it couldn't have been more than a few weeks. What evidence is there that Galland was ever in 5 Staffel?

Regards,
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Old 25th January 2011, 08:55
Many Souffan Many Souffan is offline
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Re: 4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: background color, origins & relation to personal insignia of Adolf Galland

Hello Larry.

Sorry for my delay but I must first finish an article for... yesterday. I will answer shortly now

Galland was never for me to 5.(S)/LG2 only to 4th staffel.

At the beginning it was his only personal insignia, and when he became staka, it was used by other pilots

he was faithful to his insignia till end of his life, this little photo was taken at the end of eighties, and it is the car of Galland.

Attachment 5476

Thank you.

Ps: sorry but I will finish later.
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Old 25th January 2011, 09:40
Many Souffan Many Souffan is offline
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Re: 4.(S)/LG2 Insignia: background color, origins & relation to personal insignia of Adolf Galland

I forget something.

If he was in July in this unit, he was only in the stab as Technical Officer. Don't forget he came from RLM, where he had to write his experiences from Spain.

During these 3 months before September 39, he had also to give his opinion for 2 new aircraft Hs 129 & Fw 189, he was in Berlin for the return of Legion Condor.

I don't remember well, but he told me something like that, because we spoke in English, and my English is not good and fluent.

Something that many people didn't know, his fisrt job (a little time) was technical officer in VJ/88 (Versuchsjagdstaffel), he was the pilot who received and tested the He 51 which came from Germany.


Thank you
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