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  #1  
Old 6th March 2009, 00:35
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Larry Hickey
Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Hello,

We've made very important progress within the EOE Working Group on completing a definitive Luftwaffe loss data base and matching a large number of crash and forced landing photos to these entries. Right now, we're stumped on the following three fairly intact KG54 He111s, for which numerous photos exist that were surely taken during May-June 1940 period in France, Belgium or Holland. These are B3+BK, B3+EM and B3+GS. We're also seeing ID of a published photo of B3+KS which looks like it force-landed near an airfield. I'm also seeking additional photos of B3+HK. We have only a medium quality image of this aircraft obtained from eBay. This plane came down near Onnaing, France, on May 17th, with the center of the plane burned out. The former three all came down intact and show major damage from fighter attacks and/or flak damage. B3+GS had the tail either blown off to destroyed it on the ground, or torn off when it attempted a wheels down landing and one side of the gear collapsed. Please do not send in B3+EM as the a/c of Uffz Moors. This has been mis-identified by many sources as his aircraft down at Oudenaarde, Belgium, on May 21, which is incorrect information. B3+EM came down in France on an unknown date. Uffz Moors was piloting B3+GM, which was completely destroyed when it came down near Lochristi, Belgium, on May 21st. We have many photos of the wreckage of that aircraft.

Any assistance with these crashes, or with any other KG54 losses during the WC would be much appreciated. We now have confirmed photos of losses of three He111s from the disastrous 8./KG54 raid on May 10th, that resulted in the loss of six planes. We have identified with photos the wreckage of B3+AS, B3+BS and B3+DS; the B3+GS mentioned above could be one of the three remaining, one of which came down across the border from Belgium in Holland.

Regards,
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  #2  
Old 6th March 2009, 10:59
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
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steve sheridan
Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Hi Larry, marvellous to see your making such good progress with the EOE Working Group, and in particular the identification of KG54's aircraft.
To further help correlate 8/KG54's Heinkel losses for 10.5.40 is it possible to confirm the location of B3+DS or give any crew details?

Assuming that B3+GS is the a/c that forced landed and burned out at Waterhoek Polder, across the Belgian / Dutch border, and flown by Uffz Alfred Vogel this leaves only the a/c Von Riedesel, Lt Jansen, and Uffz Zenner to find.

Any further details particularly welcome.

Best regards,
Steve.
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  #3  
Old 6th March 2009, 17:14
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Larry Hickey
Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Steve,

B3+DS is Zenner's down at Hulste, Belgium. FL and center burned out, but codes still visible.

No photos known of Vogel's crash, nor are codes known, but it apparently is not B3+GS, according to a local contact.

Regards,
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Old 6th March 2009, 21:18
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
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steve sheridan
Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Hi Larry, many thanks for the clarification on Zenner and B3+DS,
also that of Vogel.
Im sure with the aid of your team and the great number of original photographs being unhearthed on E-bay, that all will be revealed one day!
Best regs,
Steve.
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  #5  
Old 14th March 2009, 23:26
Pieter H Pieter H is offline
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Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Larry,

Concerning the events on May 10, your additional data leads to the following conclusions:
B3+AS (St.Kap Stadelmayer) Adegem-Maldegem
B3+BS (Reinhardt) Merendree
B3+DS (Zenner) Hulste

Then, because you state the B3+KS came down close to an airfield
B3+KS (Riedesel) Ruiselede-Wevelgem
As you know Wevelgem was a large airfield, mainly used for training. Other sources also state this a/c came down close to Wevelgem.

Since you state that the aircraft of vogel was not the +GS, then by elimination:
B3+GS (Jansen) Morkhoven

Which then leaves us with the only one we don't know yet:
B3+?S (Vogel) Sluis (NL)

Does this make sense?

Regards, Pieter
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Old 15th March 2009, 07:28
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Larry Hickey
Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Pieter,

Thanks for your comments. Yes, the locations for B3+AS, BS and DS are confirmed by photos as stated, although all three aircraft were pretty well destroyed and burned out. A member of our WG (working group) has contacted the historical society near the 8./KG54 crash location at Sluis (NL), and they state that the background for the B3+GS photo isn't around there. Peter Taghon has interviewed people near the Ruiseledge-Wevelgem crash site, and they told him that the aircraft was set afire (by the crew?) after it landed and was pretty much burned out. That is not the condition indicated by the photos of B3+GS. Morkhoven, Belgium, however, has not been eliminated. Again, according to Peter Taghon, the plane and crew at Morkhoven fell into the hands of the Belgian Army, which was ordered to blow up the plane before they retreated from the area. He does not know if they did this or not. The tail of B3+GS, which was hit from behind by a fighter attack before it came down, was ripped from the fuselage and points in the opposite direction to the rest of the plane, which was intact, after a possible attempt to land wheels down. This could have happened during a hard landing or been done with explosives by Belgian troops before they retreated, making it impossible to confirm or eliminate B3+GS as the Mordhoven incident for now. I'm hoping that someone else will have information on this incident, or additional photos of the crash at Morkhoven (or B3+GS) that would help us research it.
Peter Taghon has commented that he thinks that the photo of B3+KS may have been taken earlier (or later) as the folliage on the bushes indicates winter or late spring. He thinks this might be from the Scandinavian Campaign
There is one other problem here. The only other loss to 8./KG54 during the Western Campaign took place on May 19th, and the location according to the NVM was Mons, Belgium, which is a change from what is in Peter Cornwell's book on the WC. We have no photos of that incident, so we don't know what the crash site looked like or the codes of the plane that crashed there. That could also have been B3+GS. So we seem to be left with either Morkhoven or Mons for the crash location for that aircraft. I'd really like to eliminate one or the other if any reader of this board can help with that.
I'd also like to turn up a photo of the apparently intact 8 Staffel crash at Sluis in the NL on May 10th, or photos of the burned out 8 Staffel He111 at Ruiseledge-Wevelgem. Slowly and patiently we're working our way through all of the WC Luftwaffe crashes.
We've recently confirmed that we now have photos of all five fighter crashes on land during the first day (10.5.40) of the campaign in the NL: 4 Bf109s and 1 Bf110. We've also, as a result of some brilliant sleuthing by a member of the EOE WG, confirmed that a plane claimed lost by 2.(J)/LG2 in Belgium on May 12th actually FL in Holland. He's located the exact spot with 100% certainty.
I now have only one series of u/i photos of a Bf109 FL in the NL during the WC for which the identity is not confirmed, and I've got a strong suspicion on that one. Another recent success was the correct ID of the He111 fuselage abandoned along a road in a suburb of Ham, France, which was much photographed by passing German soldiers. We now have the W.Nr. and full a/c code of that one, as well as a photo of it at the original crash site.
We're getting there!

Regards,
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  #7  
Old 15th March 2009, 14:21
Putkikker Putkikker is offline
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Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Just a note: The use of the name Holland is incorrect, it does not exist as a country. The Netherlands is the correct name to use in English
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  #8  
Old 15th March 2009, 18:15
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Larry Hickey
Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Hello,

I live in America, and Holland is a commonly used term here for the country of the Netherlands. They are used by many people interchangeably. Maybe in Britain it isn't; I don't live there. I know which country it is, and so do the readers of the board.

Do you have any helpful info to contribute to this discussion of He111 losses from 8./KG54?

Regards,
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  #9  
Old 15th March 2009, 22:24
David Ransome David Ransome is offline
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David Ransome
Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Hi,

I have to say that I agree with Larry, and I'm from the UK. In history or geography we always referred to France, Belgium, Holland although as a child stamp collector I knew that the latter was also referred to as the Netherlands. I'm 54 so it could be that younger members may have a different view!

Regards,

David
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  #10  
Old 16th March 2009, 00:06
Pieter H Pieter H is offline
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Re: Seeking Western Campaign crash locations & crew IDs for 3 shot down KG54

Larry,

The Bf109 on May 12 of 2.(J)/LG2 you mention as having come down down in the Netherlands should then have been the one at Berkelaar in southern Limburg. Can you confirm?

Regards, Pieter

PS Re. the naming of The Netherlands vs. Holland you are fully right that for a non-dutchman they are considered the same. In fact we are often already quite happy if foreigners don't think Holland is the capital of Denmark or something similar. The sensitivities on these kind of naming topics are usually highest inside the country, and we shouldn't bother others with it. But just to summarise the sensitivities again: Holland is formally the western part of the country, what are now the provinces of Southern and Northern Holland. Dutchmen from the other peripheral provinces usually don't like to be seen as being from Holland. Has something to do with events from 400 years ago and carefully cultivated ever since. So very serious indeed ....
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