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  #11  
Old 17th February 2009, 09:58
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

What about this one?

27.05.42 III/JG5 Bf109E-7 4141 Titowka 40% Enemy Fire None personal injury.

(Did not know there was an 'emergency airfield' at Titowka. Thought this was the front line?)

Anyway, engine stopped, pilot survived. 40% damage seems about right. Believe engine has been removed not broken off. Belly landed but now up on jacks and being disassembled.

So possibly White 3, 8 or 9 of 7./JG5??
(9./JG5 - where located at Trondheim moving up in July 42?)

Any other listings for 4141 later in 42/43?

regards

Mark

Last edited by markjsheppard; 17th February 2009 at 10:11. Reason: question
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  #12  
Old 17th February 2009, 11:53
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hello!

Thanks to Stig it is confirmed I indeed took wrong WNr initially (I've corrected it now). Had to work towards midnight yesterday and had no steam left to look Valtonen's book when finally at home.

Now. Is the topic photo of Bf 109 "white 3" in question correctly identified? Is it "3" or even white? Titovka AFAIK was never in German hands so the photo should be of Soviet origin. It does not really look like it. And is the subtype E-3, hood looks like early type? Is the year 1941 or 1942? I really cannot say, don't have any better info. My motivation for posting the photo was to invite discussion and it worked.


About the tactical numbers and Bf 109 transferring to North early 1942

Data from "Pori airfield logs" reveals following BF 109 flights April – early May 1942:

April 3rd, single Bf 109 coded "2" from Pori to North.

April 5th, ten Bf 109, codes 2,3,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 and 12 from Reval to Pori. All ten took off towards North the next day, but "3" and "7" returned. The two followed rest April 9th.

April 15th, solitary Bf 109 "1934" from Pori towards North.

April 29th, Bf 109 "gelbe 2" local flight at Pori.

April 30th, three Bf 109 "4", "6" and "9" from Helsinki to Pori. "4" and "9" continued North the same day. Also "gelbe 2" and "rote 19" from Pori to North.

May 1st "schwarze 2" from Helsinki to Pori. It continued to North with "schwartze 6" the same day.



Discussion and speculation

I think the ten Bf 109s early April was Staffel (7th?) worth of E models with white tactical numbers. This might or not be confirmed by checking other logs like Rovaniemi, Oulu etc.

Late April Bf 109s seem to have been with black codes. Another Staffel (8th?) towards North?

Before, between and after these Staffel transfers there were numerous Bf 109 recorded with Stammkennzeichnen and also with no recorded codes. The first Bf 109 F-4 models recorded as such arrived at Pori May 15th. You (Mark and Andreas) should have them already in the file I sent couple of years ago?

Anyone knows if it was common habit to mark converted Bf 109 E-7s with Werke Nummer? The Finnish air observation logs record codes given to them by Germans and/or those visible on plane surface. There has been several photos in E-bay auctions which do show four digit number painted on fuselage behind canopy hood. The Bf 109 "1934" might be one of those E-7s? Or was it Mtt Regensburg custom (compare Schmoll's book, photo on p. 45).


I will leave for holidays now and there will be no response by me for several days. Please continue the discussion as this might get the bigger picture of the JG 5 build up early 1942 a bit clearer.


All the best,
Kari

Last edited by Kari Lumppio; 17th February 2009 at 13:02.
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  #13  
Old 17th February 2009, 17:16
Tomislav Haramincic's Avatar
Tomislav Haramincic Tomislav Haramincic is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Quote:
Originally Posted by markjsheppard View Post
What about this one?
27.05.42 III/JG5 Bf109E-7 4141 Titowka 40% Enemy Fire None personal injury.
Hello,

According to GQM losses and Prien's JFV, the above mentioned Bf109E was already lost in 1940.
Bf 109E-4 WNr.4141 27.09.40 6./JG3 N.N., Luftkampf - Absturz, in die See (Kanal) - 100%

The correct JG5 loss on the 27.05.1942 should be the following
Bf 109E WNr.4111 27.05.42 8./JG5 N.N., Luftkampf mit Jäger - Notlandung, W Titowka - 40% sw.2+ (E-7)

best regards,
Tomi
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  #14  
Old 18th February 2009, 12:29
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hi, Tomislav

I believe you are wrong.

As far as I can see (will double check this evening) WNr 4141 must have been recovered after the incident in JG 3. I have this aircraft noted for a longer period of time as being refurbished to E-7 status at Erla.

It was damaged at Langeoog while with I./JG 54 in May 1941, was returned to be repaired again, and went to JG 5 where we have the loss listed of 27.05.1942.

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=127126

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=122967

I would have been comfortable with the aircraft being lost and the WNr erronously recorded if it was only the loss in JG 5 we had, but in this case we not only have multiple GenQu 6 Abt references to this airframe after the alleged loss, but also other documentary sources from a repair facility which has recorded this WNr.

Will double check this evening.

Regards,
Andreas B
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  #15  
Old 18th February 2009, 13:28
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hi Andreas,

Yes, I think you are right. The WNr. for the loss on the 27.09.40 might be wrong.
Could you please also check what you have for WNr.4111?

I have ther following
Bf 109E WNr.4111 19.04.41 4./JG54 N.N., Überschlag bei Landung, Fl.Pl. Belgrad-Semlin - 50%
Bf 109E WNr.4111 10.08.41 5./JG77 N.N., Luftkampf mit Jäger, bei Zebrikowo - 35%
Bf 109E WNr.4111 14.07.42 Stab/SchG1 N.N., beim Start ausgebrochen, Fl.Pl. Kartayschewka - 35%

regards,
Tomi

Last edited by Tomislav Haramincic; 18th February 2009 at 13:29. Reason: error
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  #16  
Old 18th February 2009, 13:56
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hi, Tomislav

I have the following for these three losses:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112068

As you can see I have WNr 4114 for this one, and I have checked the GenQu records to be sure I haven't made an error, and it says 4114.

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=135878

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=135879

The other two seem to be more or less similar to what you have

Regards,
Andreas B
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  #17  
Old 18th February 2009, 22:06
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hi, guys.

Finally got time to access my archives.

Some facts:

The 7./JG 5 (ex 1.(Eins)/Erg. J.G.3) was in Banak on 21.4.1942 as reported in the KTB of Luftflotte 5 Gefechtsstab on this date. The order was for the unit on this date to stay ready for redeployment and immediate action at Banak. It is of interest to note that they state that 7./J.G.5 'mit Spitzenpersonal' is at Banak, which indicate that the units commanding officers and Gruppenstab is also located at Banak at this time.

The next day, 22.4., the order for the unit to continue their redeployment to the north is mentioned, really an annullment of the order of the previous date.

Late May 1942 the same war diary mentions 9./JG 5, which at the time is stationed in Bodø, they are to dispatch one Schwarm to Elvenes for protection of shipping in Narvik.

Have had a few minutes to think about this now, and as we all know, the II. Gruppe were dispatched to Pori in a Staffel by Staffel operation late April 1942, in order to re-equip with Bf 109F. So i believe what we see from the tower logs at pori at this time is the individual Staffeln of II. Gruppe transferring their new mounts to the frontline after a brief transition training at Pori.

So - I think my theory with regards to the combined operation of 7. and 8. Staffel still hold water.

The new assessment of the photograph in question more and more point towards the 6./JG 5. The style of the numeral '3' is typical of the numerals used by this unit, as seen on for example the aircraft of Rudolf Müller.

Is it possible to be certain about WHAT airfield we are dealing with here?? the barracks and their placement should be a rather distinctive feature. I have overviews over all airfields in Norway with drawings and aerial photographs, but not from the finnsih ones.

I guess the Soviets must have flown recon over these, any material available from that side??

Regards,
Andreas B
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  #18  
Old 18th February 2009, 22:29
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Andreas

I also though the 3 was of the same style as Müllers Yellow 3.

Been having a look at Bf109 E's - summer 42 - E's handed over to another staffel/Gruppe. Nothing sticks out. Be interesting to know the location though.

regards

Mark
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  #19  
Old 19th February 2009, 11:24
Martti Kujansuu Martti Kujansuu is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken View Post
Is it possible to be certain about WHAT airfield we are dealing with here??
The owner of the photo is a Finnish soldier based on Petsamo area but I'm not certain if he also took the photograph.

Martti
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