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  #11  
Old 12th February 2010, 01:39
Dan O'Connell Dan O'Connell is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Well said Larry. My Dad wore one from WW2 until he died in 1990. He did not die glowing in the dark. We have same nonsense here.
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  #12  
Old 12th February 2010, 17:42
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Radium paint is not "apparently radioactive" - it is radioactive. There is a known and very well documented history of deaths and disfiguring cancers from it, although generally linked with working practices at the factories using this paint, and hence higher levels of direct exposure.

The problems caused by low-level radiation are far from clear: there is considerable controversy over evidence that there is indeed no such thing as a safe level, however low this is set. It seems clear to me that those arguing strongest against it are those with a wish to avoid possible lawsuits, rather than those with a truly independent point of view. Which does not necessarily make them wrong.

Illness and deaths due to radiation are always a lottery: some people survive unharmed whereas others succumb to lower levels. I suspect that long-term exposure to this level would not affect many: or perhaps your fathers may just have been lucky.

It is the role of government agencies to be protective - there is after all a long list of cases where such protection has been inadequate for the workforce or general populace, so the modern tendency for litigation forces them that way.
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  #13  
Old 12th February 2010, 20:38
harrison987 harrison987 is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Ah yes...

But...

We are ALL subjected to Radiation every day...this is all due to:

- smoking
- elevation
- the area of the country you live in
- air pollution
- food (eg. potassium)
- pacemakers
- porcelain crowns
- gas lanterns while camping
- Xray machines scanning luggage at airport
- fallout from nuclear weapons testing
- if you live in stone, brick, or concrete building
- watching T.V.
- Luminous hands on wristwatches
- Smoke detectors
- and if you live within 50 miles of a coal or nuclear power plant


The AVERAGE person is exposed to 360 mrem every year.

When I was living in Canada a few years ago, I had an Tachometer glass break in my hands, and my fingers touched directly the hands, dial, and face of the instrument.

So...I had a guy come in with a Radon meter, and he swept my ENTIRE apartment, including me. He swept around 15 instruments from what I recall.

The amount was SOOOOOO negligible, it was not worth even being concerned about. And this was after I touched the radium directly.

At 1 foot from these instrument, the radiation is usually 30 times less than at the instrument's surface.

A test was done on 2 WW2 instruments and this is what was observed.

The amount of radiation was 0.5 mR/h on the surface of the gauge. At a distance of 1 foot, the radiation was less than 0.03 mR/h. At a distance of 2 feet, the radiation is difficult to distinguish from normal background radiation.

So...don't sleep on your instrument panel and you are fine...

If the average person is exposed to 360 mrem/year...jsut from REGULAR every day circumstances, than certainly the government is over-reacting....
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  #14  
Old 12th February 2010, 22:21
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Adam Adam is offline
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Re: Big WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huib Ottens View Post
Hi Laid,

Have you considered contacting "Hart van Nederland" or "de Telegraaf"?

They probably will be interested in presenting this case to the general public and probably nationwide publicity will be helpfull.
Have you likewise considered contacting your local MP and enlisting the help of someone political?
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  #15  
Old 13th February 2010, 01:47
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stephen f. polyak stephen f. polyak is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Good points one and all . . .

However, and I am not being flip, don't think that the actions of the government, medical and law enforcement officials in this case, at this point at least, will yield to a few sprinkles of common sense, reason or even technical facts. Even worse, those factors may not alter the outcome later. Simply, something "radioactive" was shipped (always a no-no without quantification/declaration [but it can be done], and in today’s world of weapons of mass destruction and dirty bombs really an attention/headline getter) and this time detected (overwhelmingly these things aren't), and the trail lend to the recipient (and, worse, more “radioactive” stuff). What's the knee jerk reaction – confiscate! Here in the US, not only the items but the owner may have gone for a ride downtown. While I have doubts that the government will sort this out favorably, that is where you must turn, aided by legal representation. Imagine - believeing they are "protecting" the many - if they come down even harder in terms of individual ownership!

Got to wonder where those items are now “safely and properly” stored.

Last edited by stephen f. polyak; 13th February 2010 at 15:47.
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  #16  
Old 13th February 2010, 10:40
Andy Saunders Andy Saunders is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Indeed, so, Stephen!

I am not sure that some of the suggestions about involving the press are such a good idea. One can never be sure the angle the press will take, and that route could MASSIVELY back fire and achieve the opposite effect that Liad might desire. The press might take the government's line in this and go with the story that this is all hugely radioactive and extremely dangerous. I can see the headlines now.

That said, the media probably already know....and someone in that industry will have probably read all of this by now anyway. Its probably only a matter of time before we read lurid and sensational headlines.
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  #17  
Old 13th February 2010, 21:59
Huub Vink Huub Vink is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Liad, I was pointed to this forum by a friend, who had similar problems like you have now. I will try to explain the legal framework a bit. In the Netherlands there is a Radiation protection Decree (Besluit Stralingsbescherming). According to this Decree it is forbidden to have radio active marterials, unless there is a specific need to have them. In that case you can apply for a license at Senternovem. The licence contains all requirements you will have to meet.

As you can not justify the need to have radio active material, you are not allowed to have these instruments. The Aviodrome has recently received a permit and "bevrijdende vleugels" is currenly in the application proces for a permit. Senternovem does not consider "collecting instruments" a solid reason to issue a permit.

Aircraft instruments have been "discovered" by the "labour inspectorate" already a few years ago. Recently a new "market" has been discovered; The instruments in vintage vehicles! As they contain Radium as well.

About Radium paint: Most instruments painted with this paint generate quite some dose (Even above the limits for exposure for radiation workers!). Especially at short distance.
However this isn't the biggest risk. The paint is very brittle therefore most instruments are contaminated with small radioactive particles or dust. Especially when the glass of the instrument has been removed or when it is broken, the risk on an internal contamination is quite large.

I understand this might sound harsh, but for your own health and for the health of the people you live with it is better to get rid of these instruments.

I wish you good luck in court, however as the Decree forbids posession, you most probably won't get your instruments back. Hopefully the judge will decide that you won't have to pay COVRA for the removal of the instruments.

Best regards,
Huub Vink
Radiation Safety Expert

Hier kan je de laatste versie van de vergunning van het Aviodrome vinden: http://www.senternovem.nl/mmfiles/20...m24-326283.pdf
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  #18  
Old 13th February 2010, 22:41
Andy Saunders Andy Saunders is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

It seems from Huub's useful post that insofar as the Netherlands are concerned this must be an open and shut case - unfortunately for Liad! If those are the rules and that is the law, then I imagine not a lot can be done about it.

In the UK (and possibly elsewhere) the regulations do seem to be a little more ambiguous, and certainly open to interpretation in different ways.

I imagine that sooner or later in the UK there will be a test case, and this could well set a benchmark for what is acceptable and what is not.
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  #19  
Old 14th February 2010, 13:43
Huub Vink Huub Vink is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

Before you take actions which can't be reversed. When I did a check of the instruments of my friend, only about 50% had dials painted with Radium. Of course the proper way to check is with a suitable dosimeter, but in most cases the Radium paint can be recognised because it is more brownish and looks more brittle than the chemical luminous paint.

One hazard I had forgotten to mention is the release of "Radon" gas because in the decay process Radium turn into Radon. Radon is known for its ability to cause Lung cancer.

For our fellow Europeans; Radiation safety legislation is more or less directed by Euratom for all its member states. However every country translates the directives to its own legislation. In all these countries the ALARA (As low as reasonably achievable) principle is applied. Therefore in all countries possession is forbidden without a proper justification. There is however a large difference in all countries what is regarded as "proper justification". One country accepts "collecting" as a proper justification and my country doesn't.
As this is most likely related to how much value a gouvernment gives to the past I personally don't think you will have a similar situation in the UK soon.

Regards,
Huub
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  #20  
Old 14th February 2010, 20:40
RolandF RolandF is offline
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Re: Big Collection WWII Aircraft Instrument Panels and Instruments confiscated

In case you are living in a country with substantial granite and gneiss formations you won´t have such problems. There´s so much "natural" radiation and Radon gas escape so there is no chance of coping with such problems. Apart from the evacuation of entire districts.

The Netherlands can afford such luxury like confiscating your collection. What makes me wonder is the obvious fact they did not contact or inform you to get an adequate solution.

Regards

Roland
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