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Old 18th September 2010, 00:54
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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F-84s vs MiGs

Continuing in the investigation with different sources and comparing dates I have finded today two events envolving activites of MiGs and F-84s.

04-11-51

This day a PLAAF pilot, Zhao Baotong of the 3th FAD, 7th regiment with other five MiGs engaged some 24 F-84s Thunderjets near Sunchon, claiming after combat two and one damaged.

The event is well related in the book of Xiaoming Zhang "Red Wings over the Yalu". The USAF records do not confirme the kills but the Korwall had one entry under the "UNK" , a short descripition with:

"UNK Bailed out over land N of K-9, Nov 4, 1951." The plane is clear defined as F-84 , but ,nothing more, no Unit, no Bu number, no pilot name or ranks o something other.

Other event , the Mar 3 ,1952.

Heavy losses this day for the Thunderjets , four planes shot down.
The PLAAF was in the air this day , already two MiGs were shot down and one F-86E-10 of the 51th FIW(51-2761) was damaged with 23mm hits.

The F-84s shot down were of the 136th FBW(49-2416, 50-1169) and 49th FBG(51-670, 51-537) ; the event had some "smell" of MiGs but no direct reference in the records or different books.
We finded "engine exploded (poss due to battle damage)" , or "Did not rejoin flight after bombing run" , etc.

Maybe was the AAA and nothing to do with MiGs, but....

Another event but no F-84 this time, but F-94. The plane called "Volleyball 95" after VVS records, shot down in colission with a MiG-15 nighfighter of the 351 IAP the Nov 7, 1952. The Soviet pilot Ivan P. Kovalev ejected safely and later received the order of the Red Banner.
I dont have finded the ID of this plane or his crew. Some idea or information about that?

Regards

Daniel
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Old 18th September 2010, 19:15
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Re: F-84s vs MiGs

Clashes between F-84s and MiGs

F-84s flew his first mission in Korea the Dec 6. 1950. First unit deployed was the 27th FEW , a elite unit favorite of Curtis Le May.

-Dec 4, 1950 Despite the date of the first mission , Kapt Stephan Naumenko of the 29th GIAP submitted claims for two F-84s shot down this day. The USAF Jets engaged by the 29th GIAP were certainly F-80s and no losses were recorded this day. One MiG(Sn/Lt Rumyantsev KIA) was loss this day after structural or mechanics problems.
The Dec 13, 1950 the 27th FEW loss his first Jet by AAA(49-2335).

-Dec 24, 1950 At 10.30 hours over Sinhodo marshalling railyards a flight of F-84s spotted four MiGs and the Thunderjets dive to attack. After Russian sources was an ambush and two other MiGs of the 29th GIAP were waiting in altitude(Kapt Stepan Naumenko and his wingman Aleksey Minin). Naumenko dive and engage the last Thunderjet at some 800 meters. The F-84 was hit and crash. After the Russians, the remains of the Thunderjet and the corpse of his pilot 2th Lt Roger Bascom were found by Chinese soldiers 25 kms to the SE of Simhodo railroad station. The loss of this F-84(49-2422 of 27th FEW, 522nd FES) is admitted by the USAF but the reason gived are others: "Returning from combat mission, low on fuel, crashed near Kopo-ri Korea approx 5 mi SW of K-14".

So near of K-14 Kimpo? And in the Russian versión Chinese soldiers?Is true at this time the Chinese ofensive was in full swing and very near of Kimpo but , MiGs so far of Antung, ummm...

-21 Jan, 1951 A raid of eight Thunderjets against a bridge over the Chongchan river was intercepted by two flights of MiGs of the 177th IAP. Major Mikhailov shot down the F-84E No 49-2340(1th Lt Grant Simpson POW). That was the first F-84 loss in combat with MiGs full admitted. Pilots Akulenko, Popov and Capt Li Han of the PLAAF in his first mission submitted also claims but only 49-2340 was destroyed and a second F-84(Lt Don Watt) damaged.
Lt. Col. William Bertram (CO of 523rd FBS) claimed one MiG shot down but actually no MiG was loss this day.

-23 Jan, 1951 Was a clear 27th FEW victory day.After some four F-84s losses by AAA and MiGs the 27th FEW had flew this day his best mission in Korea. Three MiGs were destroyed(29th GIAP Kapt G.Grebenkin(KIA) and two other MiGs of the PLAAF 4th FAD 7th regiment). Kapt Popov MiG of the 177th IAP was heavy damaged and scrapped; Maj Agureev fighter was also damaged but repaired. The victors were William W. Slaughter and Jacob Kratt Jr.(the two PLAAF MiGs shot down). The MiGs were bad utilised in medium-low attacks and had lossing his advantages in dive and climb attacks againts the F-84s. Russian and Chinese submitted claims for some 15 F-84 kills(!) but actually no losses were reported by the USAF.The 27th FEW had his four MiGs and one damaged full admitted without loss.

-Apr 16, 1951 Nikolai Shelomonov of the 196th GIAP shot down the F-84E 49-2396 (27th FEW, 524th FES).The Thunderjet crashed into hill near Kaesong-Ni, his pilot, Capt Thomas Helton, KIA.

-Jun 26, 1951 F-84s pilots 1th Lt A.Olinger and Capt H.Underwood(136th FBW)shared a MiG( Y.Naumovich-KIA 17 IAP)

-Sep 3, 1951 Kapt S.M.Kramarenko(176 IAP) shot down F-84E 49-2399(136th FBW) , his pilot Capt F.Chapman bailed out and was rescued near Cho-Do.

-Sep 19 1951 One F-84E of the 49 FBW, 9 FBS , pilot Capt Kenneth L.Skeen shot down the MiG of Ivan Tuliayev(523th IAP).

Same day , the 523 IAP engage near Sinanju the F-84s of the 49th FBW. Soviet pilots make claims for some six F-84s shot down, three of wich were credited to the Regiment's commander , Podpolkovnik A.N.Karasyov. Actually only one was destroyed ,F-84E 51-520, and can be credited to Stepan A. Bahayev.

-Oct 1, 1951 One F-84E of the 136th FBW, 111th FBS(Capt Herbert Ritter MIA)shot down by one MiG of the 176 GIAP.

-Oct 2, 1951 Colission between F-84E 50-1166(136th FBW, 182th FBS) and the MiG of N.Volkov(17 IAP, 303 IAD). Pilot of the F-84 ejected and rescued(Capt Adam J.Wisniewske).

-Oct 23, 1951 1th Lt Farris Fortner and future astronaute LTJG Walter Schirra(Both 136th FBW, 154th FBS) claimed each one MiG.(Only one MiG was loss this day-Khurtin -KIA 523 IAP-and was credited to Richard D. Creighton of the 4th FIW, 336 FIS).

Same day, 18 GIAP, 303 IAD Lev K. Shchukin shot down the F-84E 50-1220 of 1th Lt John Shewmaker(MIA)of the 136th FBW, 111th FBS.

-Oct 30, 1951 , F-84E 51-615 of the 49th FBG heavily damaged in Sunan area by Kapt Sergei Kramarenko of the 176th GIAP.The Thunderjet crash in landing.

-Nov 3, 1951 F-84E 49-2398(136th FBW) shot down by one MiG of the 523 IAP. His pilot, LtCol Richard Marks was captured and POW.

-Nov 10, 1951 F-84E 51-549 (49th FBG, 9th FBS)attacked and shot down by MiG of the 176 GIAP(Pavel S. Milaushkin)SW of Pyongyang, pilot 1th Lt Michael Rebo MIA.

-Nov 18, 1951 A shared MiG between 1th Lt Kenneth Cooley and 1th Lt John Hewett(136th FBW, 111th FBS).

Same day , F-84E 51-542 (136th FBG)was heavy damaged by one PLAAF MiG(Wang Hai of the 3th FAD 7th Regiment).The Thunderjet crashed near Cho-do.

-Dec 5, 1951 F-84E 49-2415 (136th FBW, HQ)on rail cut interdiction mission in Sinanju area, intercepted by two MiG-15s.The Thunderjet crashed into the water,pilot Capt Hugh Larkin MIA. Kill credited to Sergei F.Vishnyakov of the 176 GIAP.

-Dec 15, 1951(Last F-84 MiG kill) Capt Paul Michael(116th FBW, 158th FBS) shot down a MiG.

-17 may ,1952 If Jan 23, 1951 was the day of the F-84s againts MiGs , the 17 May ,1952 was the day of the revenge for the MiGs. Four F-84s were shot down this day by the MiGs of the 821 IAP, 190 IAD.
The Thunderjet were: 50-1114(Capt Chester Shaw),50-1230(pilot ?),51-518 Lt John Trobaugh(rescued) and the old F-84D 48-760(1th Lt James Smith-MIA). The three first were Thunderjets of the 49th FBW, the last a plane of the 136th FBW. Victors of the day were: Lt Col Grigorii F. Dmitryuk, commander of of 821th IAP(1 F-84), Lt Col Olenitsa(2 F-84s)and Maj Vladimir Zabelin(1 F-84).

-20 May, 1952 F-84E 51-618(1th Lt James F.Nevill)of the 49th FBG, 182 FBS shot down by one MiG of the 256 IAP, 190 IAD. Pilot rescued.

-Aug 6, 1952 F-84E 51-686(1th Lt William Fornes MIA)of 58th FBG, 36th FBS shot down by PLAAF MiGs.

-Sep 9, 1952 Another bad day for the F-84s .Three F-84s were shot down by MiGs of the 726 IAP, 133 IAD: 51-490 2th Lt William Suffern(KIA) 58th FBG, 69th FBS, 51-687 Capt Warren O'Brien(MIA)49th FBG, 9th FBS and 51-688 1th Lt Jimmy Alkire(MIA)49th FBG, 7th FBS. The victors were: Mijail A. Katashov(51-688, 51-490) and V. I. Motonaja(51-687).
Other 9 claims were made by the 726 IAP but the USAF admitted only the losses of this three Thunderjets. The 726 IAP loss this day by the 51th FIW three MiGs( Ivan K. Sova-KIA, Ivan I. Kapunov-KIA and K. N. Degtyarev, ejected), other three MiGs were scored also this day(two for 51th FIW and one to 4th FIW).

-Sep 28, 1951 F-84E 51-592(1th Lt Gene Dennis, MIA) of the 474th FBG, 428th FBS shot down by MiG.

-Jan 15, 1953 F-84G 51-1139(1th Lt Roger Warren POW)of the 58th FBG shot down by MiG of the 878 IAP, 216 IAD.

-Apr 12, 1953 F-84G 51-1110(1th Lt Leonard de Luna MIA)of 474th FBG, 430th FBS shot down by MiG of the 913 IAP, 32 IAD.

-May 17, 1953 F-84G 51-10450 of the 58th FBG , hit by MiG and crashed at P-Y-do.

***************

Officially, the F-84 losses by MiGs were 18 Thunderjets , but actually this number(as with the B-29 losses), is quite low and optimistic.Real documented losses were 25 and there are still some 7 to 10 more F-84s with high posibilities of be victims of MiGs and not AAA. The investigation continued.

Total losses by the Thunderjets were very high and the jet pay a high tribute to the Chinese and NK AAA with a minimum of 135 Thunderjets hits and destroyed. So a high numbers and frequence in sorties come with the risk in accidents and the report USAF Digest of 1953 speak about of 335 F-84s losses, all causes. Stephen L. Sewell is more conservative in his numbers and mentioned 234 losses. However, far of the terrific losses of Corsairs and Mustangs(555 for the first and 477 for the second).

Regards

Daniel

Last edited by Daniel Nole; 18th September 2010 at 21:20.
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Old 18th September 2010, 22:41
James A Pratt III James A Pratt III is offline
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Re: F-84s vs MiGs

Thanks for the cool info Dan and keep up the goog work. I have a page from a artical from AAHS Summer 1985 that I xeroxed off listing all the F-82 and F-51 confirmed-probable-damaged claims during the Korean war. it would be great to know who they downed or damaged ect. Then there are the other claims USN USMC ect
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Old 19th September 2010, 00:45
NickM NickM is offline
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Re: F-84s vs MiGs

Any idea what the F-84s lost/damaged by Migs were 'tasked' for? I know for a short while they tried to use them as Escort/Air Superiority but the performance differential was just TOO great & they were relegated to ground attack/close support work; As I understood it, later in the war F84 pilots didn't encounter Migs too often during their 'mud moving' duties & the Migs were somewhat 'loath' to leave high altitudes where their performance was at their best.

NM
PS: of course that also means I might well be wrong in my recollections.
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Old 19th September 2010, 20:15
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Re: F-84s vs MiGs

Main and priority target of the MiG-15s were bombers and fighter-bombers(For that was designed originally); engaged defensive patrols of F-86 was a consequence of the main task and the first step for to go then for the bombers. From Dec 1951 with two Wings of F-86 in Korea, things went complicated for the MiGs and engaged F-86 was many times the sole objetive of the missions. Sometimes the job was organized to mantain F-86 occuped with a MiG decoy force and other force utilised other aproach routes to engage the fighter-bombers. Saturation was the idea.

The F-84s was a fighter with good perfomances under the 20.000 ft and better at 15.000 ft without ordnance. If the MiGs go down to engage the F-84 in his terrain the difference in perfomances was less dramatic. F-84 and MiG pilots were realistic of the strong and weak points of his planes and the idea was to nothing to concede to the enemy and conserve the advantage.

If the F-84s were attacked the planes build sometimes a lufbery circle for protection colective(like the Bf-110 in the Battle of Britain). MiG engaged in dive and climbs tactis with very shorts instants to aiming and fire and with his slow firing rate of the 23 and 37mm cannon , things can be very complicated.

With so a high speed in dive , overshooting was normal with the MiGs and a the oportunity for the F-84s to send a good burst with his 12.7mm. Several MiGs were hit like this. Also, when the F-84s under attack dumped his ordinance, the mission and his main task was acomplished for the MiGs.

Later in the war the PLAAF defined categories of missions after the experience and skills of his pilots and divisions. The fresh, inexperimented and new arrived Divisions were send to engage only fighter-bombers; the experiencied Divisions like the 3th FAD to engage Sabres.

Regards

Daniel
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Old 24th September 2010, 01:25
JoeB JoeB is offline
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Re: F-84s vs MiGs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Nole View Post
Continuing in the investigation with different sources and comparing dates I have finded today two events envolving activites of MiGs and F-84s.

1. 04-11-51
2. Other event , the Mar 3 ,1952.

3. Another event but no F-84 this time, but F-94. The plane called "Volleyball 95" after VVS records, shot down in colission with a MiG-15 nighfighter of the 351 IAP the Nov 7, 1952.
1. An encounter between MiG's and F-84's is recorded in the Fifth Air Force daily summary Nov 4, in time period 1200-1250, no F-84 losses. The 5th AF Loss Damaged and Aborted A/c File (which the Korwald compilers didn't use, it seems) also doesn't include any F-84 loss that day, so that entry may be an error in Korwald.

2. Interestingly enough, the USAF 1953 Statistics Digest (the source of so called ‘official’ loss stats in most published works) gives 2 F-84 air combat losses in March 1952. The thing is, the Stats Digest numbers aren’t ‘highly optimistic’ but they aren’t very reliable either on month to month basis. There is no document (AFAIK in reviewing a *lot* of USAF KW era documents) which describes how the Stats Digest numbers were arrived at or that lists the individual cases. The USAF summaries of combat activity for every day of the war are easy to find, as well as lots of reports on individual incidents and a/c. But no ‘master key’ ties these in to the Stats Digest table. In case of March 1952 I’d Stats Digest table is just wrong (as similarly for various monthly numbers for other a/c types). There was no engagement between F-84’s and MiG’s that month resulting in a loss (in daily summaries), and no individual F-84 lost under circumstances which appeared to be air combat. As far as March 3, the US recorded the typical (for this period of the war) two large combats between F-86’s and MiG’s, one in the morning one in the afternoon; one RF-51 probably lost to a MiG, no encounters between MiG’s and F-84’s, and no known MiG claims of such.

3. The VMF(N)-513 F3D crew of Davis and Fessler claimed a MiG-15 downed that night, and only one, Kovalev’s, was lost. Volleyball was the callsign of VMF(N)-513 at that time (Davis/Fessler were Volleyball 3338 that night), but there were no losses of F3D's (per VMF(N)-513’s historical report/chronology for November 1952) nor any F-94's present (not cleared for operations over North Korea until later). It would seem Davis/Fessler shot down Kovalev, rather than there being a collision.

Joe
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Old 24th September 2010, 01:29
JoeB JoeB is offline
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Re: F-84s vs MiGs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Nole View Post
Clashes between F-84s and MiGs
I will comment mainly on F-84 losses. One theme in almost all cases is that sources which state which particular Soviet pilot shot down which American one are guessing; in almost all cases there are more victory credits than losses, and the credits are all at around the same time. Secondly some of the sources you quoted are not correct on various specifics.

-Dec 24, 1950 The official Soviet claims this day were all against F-86’s, one by 29 GIAP at 0950 (corrected to US time, ie Time Item), near ‘Sensen’ (ie Suncheon in northern NK) ‘pilots crashed with their a/c’, second by 29 GIAP at 1136I near ‘Tsio-To’ (ie Chodo, also pretty far north), ‘pilots crashed with their a/c’, and two credits to 177 IAP at 1125, ‘Sensen’, ‘fate of the pilot unknown’. Narrative accounts give no combats with F-84’s.

US recorded two combats that day between F-86’s and MiG’s, one at 0940I, the other at 1125I, no losses in either, no combats between F-84’s and MiG’s. So *both* sides agree there was no combat between F-84’s and MiG’s that day, and agree pretty well which combats did occur (they almost always do) though not the results (they usually don’t).

The loss of Bascom’s F-84 was near Kimpo, nowhere near the locations of the reported F-86 ‘crash w/ pilots’, and his body was recovered by UN forces, per USAF records. Also, when US and Russian governments exchanged information about POW/MIA fates in the 1990’s, no cases emerged where the Soviets had identified dead US pilots in their planes, but the US hadn’t recorded the loss of the pilot. So, when it comes to accounting for *F-86* losses, ‘pilots crashed with their planes’, with no US pilot listed by USAF, and no US pilot named by the Russian govt in the 1990’s info, turns out to be much weaker evidence than it appears at first.

This is now a problem researching this topic on the internet. I’m not a cynical person, but it’s hard to believe the author of the source you quoted is making those key mistakes entirely by accident (both sides agree F-86; no Soviet document says Bascom’s body was recovered by the Chinese, etc). It’s unfortunate, for serious students of air war history.

-21 Jan, 1951 A PLAAF 4th Fighter Division a/c was lost in this action, piloted by Zhao Zhichai. This is according to a quoted excerpt of a declassified but still ‘internal use only’ PLAAF history of the air war on a Chinese language forum.

-Apr 16, 1951: the time of the Soviet claim matches a combat of the 16th FIS, F-80's, early afternoon, no losses; and the Soviet claim was for an F-80. There was no action between F-84's and MiG's that day. Again the source you quote fudges Soviet accounts to make a match; the F-84 AAA loss was at Kaesong in southern NK; the Soviets claimed the F-80 crashed near Sinbi-do in northern NK, where the 16th FIS had their combat.

-Sep 3, 1951: This incident occurred Sept 12. Kramarenko claimed an F-84, but 3 other F-84's and 9 F-80's were credited to other Soviet pilots, v. just the single F-84 loss, all at around the same time (roughly 1720-40 time Item). So the crediting of this victory to Kramarenko is much less certain than the source makes it seem.

-Sep 19 1951: 51-528 of 49th FBG (sdn unk) was the F-84 lost, to engine failure over South Korea according to the Lost Damaged and Aborted a/c File of 5th AF for that day; more research is needed to find out if it was even on the same mission where 22 49th FBG F-84's encountered MiG's, at around 1700 (according to both sides), and one MiG was claimed and lost.

-Oct 1, 1951: yes, one F-84 lost to MiG per US records at 1020, only one claimed by a MiG between 1010 and 1026 per Soviet records, a rare clearcut confirmation of a victory for a particular pilot. However, the victor was Maj MS Ponomarev of the 17th IAP.

-Oct 2, 1951: The Crash and Preliminary Accident Report for 50-1166, gives details: mission abort because of vibration, a/c returned to K-13 and attempted to land, explosion, ejection, pilot picked up by ground ambulance 12 miles from K-13 (ie in SK), at 1545, preliminary conclusion engine bearing failure. The Soviet claim was in northern NK in window 1615-45 (corrected to 'Item'). It therefor corresponds to the loss of RF-80 45-8472 recorded at 1635, while being escorted by F-84's. The Soviet F-80 claim that day occurred at 1010 and is an over claim. F-84's evaded MiG attacks without damage at around that time (per Daily Intel Situation Report of 5th AF).

Oct 23, 1951: 3 F84 claims all in the same time window, one F-84 loss to MiG, so again no single pilot's claim is certainly confirmed.

-Oct 30, 1951: 1 F-84 suffered MiG damage and crashlanded, 2 claims by MiG’s are in the same time window, but both official credits, AFAIK, are to 18th IAP pilots, Lev Shchukin and NL Kornienko. Kramarenko’s biography claims a victory this day, but I have never found any reference to it in any other Soviet/Russian source as an official credit; in any case a victory by Kramarenko on this date is uncertain.

-Nov 3, 1951 One F-84 air combat loss, 5 official credits to the 523 IAP for F-84’s.

-Nov 10, 1951: F-84 downed by MiG’s at 1208 per US records, three credits to 176 GIAP pilots all at 1205 per Soviet records.

-Nov 18, 1951: The US recorded two combats between F-84’s and MiG’s this day, one starting at 0750 (51-660 suffered major damage from a hit in the tailpipe), other at 1555 (51-542 was lost). 3 claims of the 18 GIAP are listed as 0735-0815, one claim of 176 GIAP at 1620. The PLAAF 9th Fighter Regiment was credited w/ 5 or 6 (sources differ) additional F-84’s including Wang Hai’s claim, 1530, so presumably the second combat give or take possible time error in a published account.

-Dec 5, 1951: F-84’s encountered MiG’s at 0750 with no F-84’s lost and again at 1600 with 1 F-84 lost. The 176 GIAP claim was at 0810, 2 claims of 18 GIAP in time window 1542-1629.

-17 May ,1952 3 F-84 downed outright and 4th (49th FBG’s 50-1230) crashlanded, v. 6 claims by 821 IAP and one by 494th IAP, all about same time. It seems more likely the 494th’s claim referred to 49th FBG formation and the other 6 claims to the 3 losses in 136th FBG formation, but it can’t be determined with certainty.

-20 May, 1952: The credit to Maj VP Zakelin 256 IAP, only Soviet claim of the day, was against an F-86 at 1320, said to have been scored directly over Antung airfield inside China; the US recorded an F-86 air combat loss in a combat starting 1315, though location given inside NK. Many sources list F-84 51-618 as lost to MiG this day, but no engagement is mentioned in the Periodic Intelligence Summary for May 21 (usually reviewing the engagements of previous day) and the ‘Lost’ file says this a/c was one of the F-84’s lost on May 17, rather than 51-518. I hadn’t noticed this before. I didn’t look for an F-84 loss May 20 because there’s no Soviet claim (nor PLAAF AFAIK); needs more research.

-Aug 6, 1952: an F-84 went missing after an engagement with MiG’s at 1815. The pilot 1Lt William L Fornes said (after the war) he had become separated and was hit in the wing by unknown fire he thought was from a MiG. No Soviet claims were made and AFAIK no specific PLAAF claim against F-84’s on this date is known either. The PLAAF 17th Div/49th Regt claimed one F-86 destroyed and one damaged (no F-86 losses), as mentioned in many sources.
http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_4218991_1.html

-Sep 9, 1952: 3 F-84 losses, 13 officially recognized claims, all at almost the same time.

-Sep 28, 1952 F-84E air combat loss, but no known claim.

-Jan 15, 1953: the 726th IAP claimed 7 F-84’s, but only 2 seem to have been officially credited. After his release the F-84 pilot, Warren, said he was downed by flak, which was extremely heavy at the time his plane was hit, but OTOH the time matches the MiG claims, MiG’s were sighted in the area by other F-84’s, and the USAF assumed at the time MiG loss. This is one of a handful of US a/c losses in Korea where it’s genuinely in doubt whether the cause AA or MiG (as opposed to somebody just taking an AA loss from Korwald and arbitrarily matching it to a MiG claim the same day without checking anything else).

-Apr 12, 1953: neither F-84 loss this day matches the time of the Soviet claim by Maj BF Semenov 913 IAP, which was 1704 Item, said to be an attack on a group of F-84’s in a Lufbery Circle defensive maneuver. De Luna lost contact on a single a/c night intruder mission at 2042; 1Lt James W. Wills Jr was lost in 51-485 failing to pull out of a bomb run at 0630.

-May 17, 1953: There is no known MiG claim to explain this loss, no encounter between F-84’s and MiG’s listed for this date, and the Korwald is simply ‘enemy action’ (the Daily Korean Resume doesn’t list any F-84 loss this day, nor does the Loss File for May 1953 include this a/c, so more research is needed to see whether the Korwald entry is an error, but anyway) I see no reason to believe this was a MiG loss.


***************
As mentioned in previous post, the USAF 1953 Statistical Digest table for air combat loss by type is not necessarily a reliable reflection of the data in detailed records, though the totals are not actually ‘highly optimistic’; they do tend to come out moderately lower than a ‘bottom up’ count which includes crash landings, etc. Here’s a comparison by month for F-84's; first number is Stats Digest ‘air combat’ table, second is your list, third is what I believe is correct

Dec 1950: 0, 1, 0 (the info in your source about Dec 24 is clearly incorrect)
Jan 1951: 1, 1, 1
April 1951: 0, 1, 0 (your source is fudging facts to make this a MiG loss)
Sep 1951: 1, 2, 1 or 2 (51-528 probably a non-combat loss IMO)
Oct 1951: 2, 4, 3 (50-1166 not MiG loss, 3 counting crashlandings)
Nov 1951: 3, 3, 3
Dec 1951: 1, 1, 1
Feb 1952: 1, 0, 0 (no incident in the detailed US records, no Soviet or known PLAAF claim)
Mar 1952: 2, 0, 0 (no incident in the detailed US records, no Soviet or known PLAAF claim)
May 1952: 3, 5, 4 or 5 (counting crashlanding, May 20 incident needs more research)
Aug 1952: 0, 1, 0 or 1 (possible MiG loss but no known claim)
Sep 1952: 3, 4, 3 or 4 (possible MiG loss but no known claim)
Oct 1952: 1, 0, 0 (no incident in detailed US records, no known claim)
Jan 1953: 0, 1, 0 or 1 (possible MiG loss)
April 1953: 0, 1, 0 (only known MiG claim doesn’t match time or circumstances of either F-84 loss)
May 1953: 0, 1, 0 (no engagements, claims or other evidence this was a MiG loss)
Total: 18, 26, 16-19 counting crashlandings. This is daylight combat only, a couple of disappearances of F-84’s on night intruder missions in 1953 (unlike the April 1953 case) may match 298 IAP(N) claims, needs more research.

Joe
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Old 24th September 2010, 07:53
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Re: F-84s vs MiGs

Thanks Joe. Exactly, nothing to do with F-84s and MiGs the Dec 24 1950, I have chequed again the info of this day and only one source speak about that. Already most of kill claims of Naumenko are not admitted and cannot be supported with informations or documents.
With this type of work or investigations we must proceeded with extreme precaution and check, check and compare the informations of all sources and his reliabity.
Exactly for that I have mentionated here this event at the end with a laconic "ummm." Is not easy working with historic events of more of 50s years ago and still, with all risks of find deformations, revisions or adaptation of the sources serving particular interests, purpouse or ideas.
Coincidence in dates is not all , there are much other variables and details to take in count.

-Confirmed the kill of LtCol William E. Bertram the 21th Jan, 1951.A welcome new point. We hope new informations can be available at the future about the PLAAF historic records.

-All clear with Volleyball 3338, there are there some small confusión also with the date, some sources mentioned Nov 7, others Nov 8(a typical mistake with night fighters missions)but the victory is full admitted to the credit of Oliver R. Davis-F. D. Fessler and certainly a overclaim by Kovalev.

Thanks again Joe. Have you a email or a site to contact you privately for maybe some consults about other informations?

Regards

Daniel
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  #9  
Old 24th September 2010, 17:07
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: F-84s vs MiGs

Great thread guys. Very interesting. Keep up the good work!
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  #10  
Old 24th September 2010, 21:29
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Re: F-84s vs MiGs

Joe , about the loss of the 49-703(a F-80C this time) of the 51th FIG, 25 FIS(1th Lt Edward D Fleming KIA); you have in your records the date of Feb 12, 1951 or Feb 4, 1951?
At the "With the yanks in Korea"(page 97) is mentionated the 12th but Korwald noted the loss the Feb 4th. The 28th GIAP claimed a victory near Anju(Kapt Viktor Borodin) the Feb 12, 1951 but aparently no F-80s losses were reported this day.

Thanks

Regards

Daniel
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