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  #11  
Old 30th December 2005, 12:51
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Hi Larry and Jochen,
Many many thanks for your views and comments regarding the Emils of 5/JG3. and for the translation of Schluck = Specht!
We seem also now, to be able to confirm that Horst Buddenhagen was the pilot of Black 7+-, "What a great research tool TOCH is"

The identity of "Gretel" remains to be clarified W.Nr and kzf nbr! and also the pilot of Black 8+- with 2kills. The 4 a/c of Uffz. Josef Heinzeller's "schnauzl" ketten, needs further informtion finding, also the missing pilots.

Black 9+- Heinzeller's ? W.Nr ?
Black 10+- ? W.Nr ?
Black 11+- Uffz. Fritz Mias W.Nr 1155
Black 14+- ? W.Nr ?

What a great thread this as turned out to be, further imput please gentleman!!!

Rgs,
Steve.
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  #12  
Old 30th December 2005, 17:06
robert robert is offline
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Hi,


I think that the black "10" was flown by Lt.Max-Bruno Fischer. It probably has a personal emblem beneth the canopy (something black on white disc) and it is similar to Fischer`s personal emblem seen on his F-2 black 9 in Russia and F-4 black <- in San Pietro. Could anyone confirm this?


Regards

Robert
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  #13  
Old 30th December 2005, 18:15
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Robert et.al.,

For several years I've suspected that Lt. Max-Bruno Fischer was the pilot of "Black 10" with 5./JG 3 during the summer of 1940. This is based on the unusual personal insignia that appears later in 1941-2 on his aircraft with II./JG 3, that first appeared in Dr. Prien's book on II./JG 3. A part of a similar insignia seems to appear on "Black 10" (the large white disc) in some of the background photos dating to the Battle of Britain period in the Prien volumes. We need someone who can confirm that Lt. Fischer was, in fact, assigned and flew with 5./JG 3 during the summer of 1940. He scored no victories during this period and was in no recorded aircraft loss incidents, so that info will have to come from somewhere else. Who can solve this mystery? Robert, I was about to post this question and you beat me to it.

Thanks
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  #14  
Old 30th December 2005, 19:31
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Hohentwiel Hohentwiel is offline
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Hello Steve,

now I have some more informatins of "Black 8". I own a detailed photo
of the tail (W.Nr. 1464). The 2 kills are dated with 14.6. and 17.6.
(1940). The only one pilot could be Uffz. Fritz Mias! He had an 100%
damage at 19.6.40. Could it be that he survived and flew the 1464 later?
Was the "Black 11" his first 109?
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  #15  
Old 30th December 2005, 20:07
rob van den nieuwendijk rob van den nieuwendijk is offline
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Hello all,

Leutnant Max-Bruno Fischer of II./JG 3 was posted to this unit towards the end of 1941; first he flew with 4./JG 3 in the Med. and afterwards became Adjutant of II./JG 3 till August 44. So he did not fly with II./JG 3 in 1940. He also did not fly in the 5./JG 3 during the war.

Best wishes,
Rob
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  #16  
Old 30th December 2005, 20:43
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Gentlemen,

One possible way to determine the pilot of the 5. Staffel a/c during the Battle of Britain nicknamed "Gretel" would be to check the NVM of pilots known to have served with the unit during that period if they were later killed. If "Gretel" is listed as the name of one of these men's wives (next of kin), then we know who probably flew it. That is how Jochen Prien knew that Kijewski's aircraft nickname was probably "Erika." However, this assumes that the name was not that of a girlfriend, not later married to the pilot, or even the name of a daughter.

Does anyone know of any surviving logbooks from any of the pilots known to have flown with 5./JG 3 during 1939-40?

Thanks
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  #17  
Old 30th December 2005, 22:04
robert robert is offline
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Hi,


Uffz.Alfred Heckmann black 6? Who can confirm this?
@ Rob and what about the photo No.063 in J.Prien "Die Jagdfliegerverbaende...Teil 6/I" - it shows the mount of Lt.Max-Bruno Fischer black 9 from 5/JG3 in summer 1941 in Russia?

Regards

Robert
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  #18  
Old 31st December 2005, 11:06
rob van den nieuwendijk rob van den nieuwendijk is offline
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Hi Robert,

Yes I have seen that picture - it has Fischer´s personal insignia, but Max-Bruno Fischer was not with II./JG 3 during the first Russia campaign - 22 June till Nov 41 - perhaps he took over this insignia from another pilot who flew in the 5 Staffel and flew schwarze 9.

Regards,
Rob
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  #19  
Old 2nd January 2006, 11:45
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Hi Hohentwiel,
Sorry for not getting back to you till now, I have been working!
You are correct regarding the claims of Fritz Mias, they do correspond with the dates on the tail of W.Nr 1464.

14.6.40 1x Potez 63 Sht.dn Matry 18.45 hrs,
17.6.40 1x Potez 63 Sht dn ? 17.35 hrs.

So its maybe that Mias flew Black 8+- after the demise of his a/c on 19.6.40, and later was attributed to have flown Black 11+- W.Nr 1155.
A look through my records show W.Nr 1155 was still on the strength of JG3, 21.2.41 when it suffered 60% damage whilst no doubt being flown by a rookie pilot with the Erg/ JG3.

Rgs,
Steve.
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  #20  
Old 2nd January 2006, 12:22
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Re: 109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40

Thank you Steve. That's very interesting. Mias was later one pilot
of the Schnauzl-Kette. Now we need the nickname of his "black 8".
Does anybody have some photos of the complete 109?
The most known photos show only parts of the 1464.
Larry, I'll scan the tail for you when I find some time.

Now I'm interested in the W.Nr. of the "Schluck=Specht" machines
of Horst Buddenhagen. We know the first one from Jochen Priens Vol.4/1.
I think the "3. Schluck=Specht", a "F" was the last one of Buddenhagen.
What's about the "2. Schluck=Specht"?
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