Who shot down Capt. Nikolai A. Zelenov

[MikeFox]

Hello,

I am attempting to investigate who shot down Captain Nikolia Andriyanovich Zelenov on 29 June 1944 over Vyborg. Zelenov was a high scoring Soviet ace w/a total of 34 victories (10 shared) and a Hero of the Soviet Union along with 2 Orders of the Red Banner. During the 1944 summer offensive against Finland Zelenov was a member of 14.GIAP and was subsequently listed as killed in action on 29 June 1944. None of my Finnish sources state that a Finn made any claim against 14.GIAP on the date in question; therefore, I have concluded that Zelenov must've been a victim of a German pilot belonging to Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey. The main fighter element of the German unit were 4.Staffel and 5.Staffel of JG54. My research has revealed that a Lt. Albert Seevers of 4/JG54 claimed a Yak-9 on 29 June. Also, Lt. Gerhard Thyben claimed one Yak-9 and one Airacobra on 29 June. Was it one of these pilots that brought Zelenov down or someone else?

Any input would be most appreciated.

Mike

[Mark Steinitz]

I don't have a definitive answer to your question of who shot down Nicolai Zelenov, but it caught my attention because I am interested in the career of one of the possible victors, Gerhard Thyben. As of 2003, Thyben was living in Cali, Colombia with family, but was ill from the effects of a recent stroke. I communicated in Spanish with his son, who kindly shared with me some information and pictures from his father's album. I would like to pursue the shootdown of Zelenov with you. Maybe working together, we can get an answer. It's possible I could re-contact the son (Gerhard, Jr.) If his father has recuperated from the stroke, he may have a record or memory of the June 29th shootdown as having been the aircraft of a Soviet ace. I think this is a longshot, however.

Let me cover some preliminary ground. First, are you reasonably sure Zelenov was shot down by a German aircraft, as opposed to ground fire? Is there any record of the type of aircraft Zelenov was flying on June 29, 1944. If he was shot down by a German fighter and he was flying a P-39 Airacobra, it would seem that Thyben was the victor because only he took credit for an Airacobra on that day. Thyben's other claim was a Yak-9, as was that of Albert Seevers, the other possible victor over Zelenov.

I thought that perhaps the Planquadrats of the three victories in question by Seevers (1) and Thyben (2) on the 29th might provide some clues. They are contained Tony Wood's Loss List. The Planquadrat of Seevers' Yak-9 victory is rendered as 81 352. Thyben's Airacobra claim is 91 349 and his Yak-9 claim is 21 447. The location of Vyborg, the reported location of Zelenov's demise, is: 60 degrees, 42 minutes North/028 degrees, 45 minutes East. I asked, Andreas Brekken, a Norwegian WW II airwar expert on the Luftwaffe's Planquadrat system, which of the Planquadrat locations would be closet to Vyborg. He said that 91 349 (Thyben's Airacobra claim) would be the nearest. He added, however, that the location of Seevers' Yak-9 claim is also pretty close to Vyborg, but along the nothern coast of the Bay of Finland. Finally, Brekken thought that the Planquadrat for Thyben's Yak-9 claim was incorrect and should probably read 91 447, close to a town named Turku. This, too, is relatively close to Vyborg. Both of the 91 claims took place more or less on today's main road between Vyborg and St. Petersburg, according to Brekken.

I've come up empty on sources from the German perspective that I've consulted in English and German. Since I don't read Russian, I can only consult Soviet sources in English. I've looked at Osprey books on Red Air Force aces -- the more general one on Soviet WW II aces by Hugh Morgan and the one specifically on Yakelov aces. I saw no mention of Zelenov in either. There is an Osprey volume on Airacobra aces that includes Western allies as well as Russians who flew the aircraft, but no luck on Zelenov. I am trying to get my hands on a book by D. F. Loza, Attack of the Airacobras, which deals with the P-39 in Soviet hands. Have you read it; does it contain anything about Zelenov and how he met his end?

Christer Bergstrom, the co-author of Red Star, Black Cross, has done a lot of research about dogfights involving leading aces on both sides of the Air War on the Eastern Front. Perhaps he might see this and be willing to provide some insight, if possible. Regards.

[kaki3152]

According to "Stalin's Eagles", Zeleonv flew with the 154th IAP which turned into the 29 GIAP (Guards) on 11-22-1943. They flew Yak-9s from late 1943 on.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Mark Steinitz

I am trying to get my hands on a book by D. F. Loza, Attack of the Airacobras, which deals with the P-39 in Soviet hands. Have you read it; does it contain anything about Zelenov and how he met his end?

I checked the name index of Loza's book, but Zelenov's name is not mentioned.
I don't know how thorough this index is, however.

[NBE1942]

Zelenov never flew Aircobra. He was pilot of 154 IAP/29 GIAP which was equipped with P-40s, Yak-7s and Yak-9s. His last sortie was definitely on Yak-9...

[JALLAN]

Hi all
Turku is NOT near Vyborg, (Viipuri).
Jari

[Mark Steinitz]

Thank you for catching my error. I misread Andreas Brekken's message to me about the Planquadrats. What Andreas said was that the Planquadrat location of Thyben's June 29th Yak-9 claim as given in Tony Wood's Loss List (21447) would have put the shootdown close to Turku, which is considerably west of Vyborg. For that reason, Andreas thought it was incorrect and should have be 91447, putting the claim in the Vyborg vicinity.

It seems to me that the various comments provided have largely eliminated Thyben's Airacobra claim as being Zelenov. If Andreas is correct and Thyben's Yak-9 claim likely took place at 91447, it would seem more probable that he was the victor over Zelenov. Still, it appears that the location of Seevers' Yak-9 claim is close enough to Vyborg that he cannot be ruled out as having been the one who shot him down. Other views/new information are welcome.

[Juha]

Hello Mike
some pieces of info on Finnish claims on 29.6.44,
kers. E. Halonen's Yak-9, around 5 pm was over Sorvali, which was a suburb in NW corner of Viipuri (Wyborg) so it was over Viipuri/Wyborg. Vääp. L. Aaltonen's Yak-9 was over Tali around 8 am, which is c. 7 km NE of Viipuri/Wyborg. BTW according to Hannu Valtonen's Lento-osasto Kuhlmey all Germans' claims were over Tali-Kärstilänjärvi area, Kärstilänjärvi was/is just W of Tali. Probably Finnish claims were on wrong times and Keskinen/Stenman/Geust had found better matches to those claims. Do You know the time of Zelenov's death?

Juha

[MikeFox]

Hello to all who responded!

I am sorry about the delay in responding back to my own thread. I have been somewhat busy as of late at my job. Anyway, I unfortunately, do not know the time of Zelenov's demise. According to "Stalin Eagles" by Seidl Zelenov "fell afoul of Luftwaffe fighters in an action near Vyborg." So ground fire I think can be ruled out as well as a Finn pilot being the victor.

Mark - An interview with Thyben's son would be amazing - especially if he had access to some of his father's logs. It is unfortunate that the man himself is apparently in failing health. I also agree that now we have apparently narrowed it down that Zelenov was flying a Yak-9 on his last sortie that Thyben is the logical choice as being the most likely victor.

Mike

[Juha]

Hello Mike
if You have Keskinen's and Stenman's LeR 3, then look on p. 87 and You'll see why it often would have been impossible to Soviets to make difference between FAF's and LW's Bf 109Gs at the end of June, if the FAF's planes were new G-6s; other than by radio intelligence. Finns overpainted the German crosses with their own national markings when they had time but those were days when many Finns flew with G-6s which still had German markings. The downer could well have been Thyben but without exact time and place it is impossible to be sure. It could even have been a German or a Finn who didn't file a claim because he didn't see the crash. In LeR3 it was common not to file a combat report if there was no hope for confirmation of a kill.
All the best
Juha