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  #1  
Old 5th May 2018, 09:29
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
Alter Hase
 
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Kurt Buhlingen

Hello

Who can identify the corresponding losses?

04/07/43: source Tony Wood

one P-47,10km W.N.W cap d'antifer (Etretat) 13h.22
one spit,S.Vaucelles N.N.W Caen 17h.32

Regards
michel
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  #2  
Old 5th May 2018, 09:42
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Kurt Buhlingen

The P-47 - This was either overclaiming, or misidentification. There were no P-47 losses.

The Spitfire was one of the following:
122 sqn, 129 "Mysore" and 411 sqn RCAF.

122 sqn lost BM634 of F/S R S Williams POW and WIA, plus AD416 of Sgt. W M Whittaker also POW near Cayeux (attributed to JG 26)

129 lost BS273 of F/S Cyril Woodall KIA (near Cayeux),

and 411 lost AB802 of F/O J R Spaetzel KIA and BM422 of WIA, damaged.


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  #3  
Old 5th May 2018, 09:55
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Kurt Buhlingen

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
Hello

Who can identify the corresponding losses?

04/07/43: source Tony Wood

one P-47,10km W.N.W cap d'antifer (Etretat) 13h.22
one spit,S.Vaucelles N.N.W Caen 17h.32

Regards
michel
As additional help, here is the Tony Wood summary for that day

4. July 1943
VIII Bomber Command 71: LE MANS, NANTES, LA PALLICE
275/237: 8 lost 1 Cat.E
VIII Fighter Command 64: Bomber-Support
93 sent: 0-0-0 air: nil
09.00 z Ramrod 122
This US VIII BC mission # 71 was flown in three parts, to LE MANS, LA PALLICE & NANTES. G.A.F. fighter-reaction to the Le Mans and Nantes forces was particularly strong.
Part I LE MANS (Gnome-et-Rhône et. Cie. motor-assembly plant): 1st Bomb-Wing (91, 303, 351, 379, 381, 384 BG): 121 B-17s dispatched, 105 credited with bombing. B-17s dropped 1018 x 500-lb. GP from 21-23,000-feet at 12.40-43 hrs. Two B-17s dropped on the rail-yard at Le Mans. Route: Selsey to point 15 miles N.W. Pointe de Barfleur, to St. Lô, to Laval, to Le Mans; out via Montfort, St. Cosme and Argentan. Weather: fine, 2/10th cover over target. Claims 24-5-15 for the loss of 4 B-17s. Withdrawal-Support by eight squadrons of Spitfires.
Part II NANTES (S.N.C.A. de l'Ouest et Cie: airframe-assembly): 1st Bomb-Wing (92, 305, 306 BG): 71 B-17s dispatched, 61 credited with bombing. B-17s dropped 580 x 500-lb. GP from 21,500-25,000-feet at 12.46-49 hrs. Results assessed as excellent. Route similar to first force to Laval, thence to 47º 20' North 01º 17' West to Nantes. Enemy fighter opposition reported as moderate to strong with about 70-80 single-engined E/A being encountered on both missions.Weather: fine, 2/10th cover over target. Claims 28-9-7 for the loss of 3 B-17s. Withdrawal-Support by eight squadrons of Spitfires. On the Le Mans mission, enemy opposition started at the I.P. and continued to Argentan. On Nantes mission, from over I.P. for over an hour until force was 35 miles off French coast. FW 190s carried yellow noses. Aerial-bombing reported.
Part III LA PALLICE (U-boat pens): 4th Bomb-Wing (94, 95, 96,100 BG): 83 B-17s dispatched, 71 credited with bombing. B-17s dropped 275 x 1,000-lb. GP from 23-27,500-feet at 12.01-04 hrs. Pracitally no enemy opposition encountered: only 6-10 E/A reported. One B-17 missing, claim 0-1-0. Ref: VIII BC.
VIII Bomber Command # 71: 1st Bomb-Wing
11 Group Ramrod 122/I
Gnome-et-Rhône LE MANS
12.40 t: 121/105 B-17 Fortress: 4 lost
VIII Bomber Command # 71: 1st Bomb-Wing
11 Group Ramrod 122/II
S.N.C.A. de l'Ouest NANTES
12.46 t: 71/61 B-17 Fortress: 3 lost
VIII Bomber Command # 71: 4th Bomb-Wing
11 Group Ramrod 122/III
Lock-gates LA PALLICE
12.40 t: 83/71 B-17 Fortress: 1 lost
1st Withdrawal-Support: Hornchurch
RAF 11 Gp. Ratten 1 Spitfire F.IX 12.00-14.05 Ramrod 122 0 - ½ - 0 FW 190 No casualty WD-S: from Argentan

Claim 04.07.43 W/Cdr. J.R. Ratten 11 Group Hornchurch 0 - ½ - 0 FW 190 13.10 ca: 15 sm. N.E. Etretat

RAF 11 Gp. 222 Sqn. 11 Spitfire F.IX 12.00-14.05 Ramrod 122 0 - ½ - 0 FW 190 No casualty WD-S: from Argentan

Claim 04.07.43 Pilot 11 Group 222 Sqn. 0 - ½ - 0 FW 190 13.10 ca: 15 sm. N.E. Etretat

2nd Withdrawal-Support: Northolt
RAF 11 Gp. Gabsewicz 1 Spitfire F.IX 12.00-14.05 Ramrod 122 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 No casualty WD-S: from Argentan

Claim 04.07.43 W/Cdr. A. Gabsewicz 11 Group Northolt 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 13.10 ca: 10 sm. N. Argentan

RAF 11 Gp. 316 Sqn. 11 Spitfire F.IX 12.00-14.05 Ramrod 122 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 No casualty WD-S: from Argentan

Claim 04.07.43 F/O Ciastula 11 Group 316 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 13.10 ca: 10 sm. N. Argentan

Subsidiary Operations:
RAF 11 Group Ramrod 124
RAF 2 Group
Rail-yards Amiens-LONGEAU
16.00 z: 12/98 & 180 Sqn. Mitchell II
Close-Escort: Redhill
RAF 11 Gp. 411 Sqn. 12 Spitfire LF.Vb 16.45-18.15 Ramrod 124 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109G 1 Cat.Em 1Cat.B M-BS: Amiens

Cat.Em 04.07.43 F/O J.R. Spaetzel: kia 11 Group 411 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: AB802 Me 109s: Amiens

Escort-Cover: 122 Airfield
RAF 83 Gp. 122 Sqn. 10 Spitfire LF.Vb 16.05-18.12 Ramrod 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109G 2 Cat.Em Fighters M-BS: Amiens

Cat.Em 04.07.43 F/Sgt. R.S. Williams: p/w 83 Group 122 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: BM634 Me 109s: Amiens
Cat.Em 04.07.43 Sgt. W.M. Whittaker: p/w 83 Group 122 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: AD416 Me 109s: Amiens

Claim 04.07.43 Pilot 83 Group 122 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109G 17.20 ca: Amiens

High-Cover: Hornchurch
RAF 11 Gp. Ratten 1 Spitfire F.IX 16.45-18.30 Ramrod 124 0 - 1 - 0 FW 190 No casualty M-BS: Amiens

Claim 04.07.43 W/Cdr. J.R. Ratten 11 Group Hornchurch 0 - 1 - 0 FW 190 17.25 ca: 10 sm. ESE Abbeville

RAF 11 Gp. 129 Sqn. 11 Spitfire F.IX 16.45-18.30 Ramrod 124 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 Cat.Em Fighter M-BS: Amiens

Cat.Em 04.07.43 F/Sgt. C. Woodhall: kia 11 Group 129 Sqn. Spitfire F.IX: BS273 FW 190s: ESE Abbeville

RAF 11 Gp. 222 Sqn. 11 Spitfire F.IX 16.45-18.30 Ramrod 124 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 No casualty M-BS: Amiens

Claim 04.07.43 Pilot 11 Group 222 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 17.25 ca: 10 sm. ESE Abbeville
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  #4  
Old 5th May 2018, 13:25
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
Alter Hase
 
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Re: Kurt Buhlingen

Hi Nick

THE problem,hence my question,is that neither the place,the time,the type corresponds.

The fall of the spits (122°,129°,411° Sqd) Amiens/Berck/Villers-Bocage/17h30-18h00 correspond to the claims of Galland W-F,Glunz,Radener,Leuschel,Golzsch,Umlauft.

spit N.N.W.Caen (impossible),but good hour! 17h30!

P-47!! W.N.W.Cap d'Antifer (place possible!),but bad type and bad hour, 13h22!

michel
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  #5  
Old 5th May 2018, 13:47
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Kurt Buhlingen

Indeed, but overclaiming is a frequent problem when looking at JG 2's combats
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Old 5th May 2018, 19:09
VtwinVince VtwinVince is offline
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Re: Kurt Buhlingen

We're talking about Buehligen here?
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