Peter Duttmann vs "panzer"

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

... May I suggest that Michael start up some separate headings, perhaps such as "German claims system" and "Heinz Bär"?

...

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

because Bär is among the top 20 Bf109 aces I invite those who want to exchange Bär thoughts and opinions to my Bf109 thread:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...3&postcount=46

Have a very nice Tuesday,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi

I have checked Bär's flugbuch and he makes no distinction between h.s.s and confirmed claims, in fact he occasionally writes abschuss, but other than that nothing, in fact he usually just writes an aircraft type nothing else. Seems that making a claim for him was so common an event that it didn't make much impression on him.

Regards

Johannes

[knusel]

Good morning Johannes,

thanks for the info. Does Bär's Flugbuch show that he used the following planes for scoring?:

• Bf109E September 1939-November 1940
• Bf109F April 1941-June 1942 and December 1943
• Bf109G October 1942-April 1943
• Fw190A February 1944-August 1944
• Fw190D January 1945
• Me262A March 1945-April 1945

Kind regards,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

I only have his flugbuch(copy) from 12.08.1943, and he is flying many varied aircraft types including Italian in non-combat until is two claims in December 1943 when he is flying an Fw190, but he never gives aircraft sub-numbering, but he usually flew Fw190 number 13 or 1 until the end of his JG 1 efforts. From then on in non-combat roles he sticks to Fw190's. Then from 02.04.1945 he flies exclusively Me 262 number 13, this contradicts the story that he flew a Me262 with six 30mm cannons, or his flugbuch is missing several flights, his first claim with the Me262 would appear to be on only his second flight with this type, yet he makes a note after his last flight recorded in his flugbuch the fact that he flew Me262 armed with rockets, and more contradicting armed with a 50mm cannon!.

Regards

Johannes

[PMoz99]

Johannes, thank you for providing this information about Bar (please pardon the lack of umlaut)
Peter

[knusel]

Thanks Johannes for this interesting info.
Do I understand correctly, he flew an Fw190 for his December 1943 claims ?

Michael

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

Yes, he did fly an FW 190 for his December 1943 claims.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Russ Fahey

Hello Michael,
Yes, the wikipedia entry is a mistake, possibly caused by a misread of the date in Düttmann's flugbüch. (The handwritten digit 4 could be mistaken for a 6.)
But the tank destruction was definitely claimed by Düttmann on April 24, 1945.
Russ

Thanks Andew.
Good afternoon Russ,

back to Düttmann: can you tell me which two of the following claims Düttmann considered confirmed ?: 19Oct44(800), 31Oct44(1415), 1Nov44(1402)

Cheers,

Michael

[Russ Fahey]

Hello Michael,

From Duttmann's leistungsbuch:

1) Lagg-5 19.10.44 0800 not confirmed, listed as 36th claim "ohne zeugen".

2) Il-2 "m.H." 31.10.44 1415 "confirmed", listed as 116th abschüss.

3) Jak-9 1.11.44 1402 "confirmed", listed as 119th abchüss.

To conclude, the October 31, 1944 and November 1, 1944 claims shown above seem to have been considered confirmed by Düttmann.

Regards,

Russ

[knusel]

Good afternoon Russ,

thanks a lot for the info.
Could you tell me which of the following kills Düttmann considered confirmed ?

• 3Apr44 1002
• 3Apr44 1003
• 6Apr44
• 10Apr44 750
• 11Apr44 605
• 13Apr44 823
• 13Apr44 827
• 15Apr44
• 18Apr44

Cheers,

Michael