16-17/6/44 night fighters over England

[DavidIsby]

Were German night fighters/intruders active over England on the night of 16-17 June 1944?

The compliation of air-air victories from BA-MA microfilms includes the following information on 17/6:

Kdo. IX. Fliegerkorps/Lft.3
1. Uffz. Ottern 6/kG51 claimed u/i 4-engine aircraft at 2225/05 Ost, 4,500 m [England] at 0200 according to Film C 2027/IIAnerk Nr. 15
1. Fw Trenke 6/kG51 claimed u/i 4-engine aircraft at 121/05 Ost, no height [England] at 0215 according to Film C 2027/IIAnerk Nr. 16

Questions:
1. Can these claims be related to any specific Bomber Command or other loss over England at that time/place?
2. Can anyone provide a reference to a source that would provide the location of the grid references aove?

Thanks
David Isby

[Griffon]

Hello David!

I do not know if this is of any help for you, but I do own a so called "Luft Naviations-Karte in Merkatorprojektion" and checked the grids you provided on this map;

grids 12 and 22 (I would start with these as a reference for the coordinates you have given) lie on a straight line between Vlissingen and Southend, grid 12 contains Canterbury and Folkestone in its South-Western corner and runs up to Harwich while grid 22 lies to the North West of the Straits of Calais and has Dunkerque and Ostende on its Southern edge.

I do hope that this is a starting point for you, unfortunately I cannot tell you how the grids on this navigation chart are subdivided so I cannot provide more details;

cheers from Vienna
phil

[SES]

Originally Posted by DavidIsby

Were German night fighters/intruders active over England on the night of 16-17 June 1944?

The compliation of air-air victories from BA-MA microfilms includes the following information on 17/6:

Kdo. IX. Fliegerkorps/Lft.3
1. Uffz. Ottern 6/kG51 claimed u/i 4-engine aircraft at 2225/05 Ost, 4,500 m [England] at 0200 according to Film C 2027/IIAnerk Nr. 15
1. Fw Trenke 6/kG51 claimed u/i 4-engine aircraft at 121/05 Ost, no height [England] at 0215 according to Film C 2027/IIAnerk Nr. 16

Questions:
2. Can anyone provide a reference to a source that would provide the location of the grid references aove?

Thanks
David Isby

Hi David.
The positions are given in the old Lw grid system. The link below has a converter (LUMA, use pre MAY 1943), which will convert the positions to lat./long.
http://www.gyges.dk/reporting_grids.htm and this is a part of the story:
http://www.gyges.dk/Wilde%20Sau%20Frankrig.htm I have a copy of the German document.
bregds
SES

[FrankieS]

Hi David !

You can use LUMA for finding your map coordinates.
See: http://www.gyges.dk/reporting_grids.htm

2225/05 Ost
is the center point of this map (with about 5 km radius)
http://mc.multimap.com/cs/bworld//M1...00W700H400.gif

121/05 Ost
is the center point of this map (with about 15 km radius)
http://mc.multimap.com/cs/bgb//X25/Y...00W700H400.gif

bye,
FrankieS

[Chris Goss]

...and no Bomber Command losses match easily

[Brian]

Hi David

I believe they may have been US B-24s returning late from a raid - I will endeavour to find out more unless one of our American friends can provide the answer.

Cheers
Brian

[Griffon]

I too believe that these losses could be US bombers, returning late from a raid;
AFAIK, the 410s were not equipped with a radar set, so a full night intruder sortie would have been very difficult to fly for them, a intruder sortie during the last daylight hours seems more probable to me too.

btw, isnt there a book about a particular costly raid where ME-410s decimated a US formation returning from a raid against Hamm IIRC?

cheers
phil

[mhuxt]

The book you're thinking of is "Night of the Intruders" by Ian McLachlan. I've not read it.

[Kutscha]

Just to point out that the claims were made at 2:00AM and 2:15AM. It would be pitch black at that time unless a full moon.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hallo David

This night was first of all a major Bomber Command night with a raid on Sterkrade as part of its job! As Chris so aptly state, it is VERY difficult to co-relate specific RAF losses with German claims!
Luftwaffe made 40 claims this night while RAF lost 36 to all causes. The number of damaged aircraft unknown.
Part of KG 51' s job was to take action over Britain so it is quite possible that the shoot downs claimed in fact WERE over Britain.In fact Chorley DO list some aeroplanes lost over Britain this night, but most losses seems to have happened over Holland and also over the Channel, so the individuals from KG 51 might have stumbled across returning bombers as well. The grid reference, to me, indicate that the pilots of KG 51 in question were rather unsure of where they were and their navigators did their best by using this system. So even if pinpointing those places I would be very cautious using that as evidence of WHERE exactly these two claims were made.

B Rgds
Stig