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  #21  
Old 17th March 2014, 11:30
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

Hi Larry,
Interesting analysis, but I also have a problem with the timing. The attached .pdf files are the log from the aircraft reporting center in the HQ of Luftgau XI, which at that time had the overall responsibility for air defense in the area in question. It records visual sightings, which mostly must be from the intercepting fighters and they are in the 1420 - 1542 timeframe. That does not compute with a take-off time of 8:55 - 9:40. And this discrepancy cannot be explained through a time zone difference, which might have been one hour.
The positions given in the four digit format are based on the German reporting grid described in an additional .pdf file.
bregds
SES
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Helgoland 18 Dec 1939 page 1.pdf (175.2 KB, 76 views)
File Type: pdf Helgoland 18 Dec 1939 page 2.pdf (145.1 KB, 43 views)
File Type: pdf Gradnetzmelde.pdf (80.6 KB, 53 views)
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  #22  
Old 17th March 2014, 11:53
F19Gladiator F19Gladiator is offline
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

In case it can be of help - According to this site:
"This was not the first experiment to shift the clocks in winter. In the Second World War (1939-45), Britain had adopted Double British Summer Time, with the clocks one hour ahead of Greenwich in winter and two hours ahead in summer."
And in Germany from here : "After the end of the war and the proclamation of the Weimar Republic in November 1918, summer time ceased to be observed in peace time. Summer time was reintroduced in 1940, during World War II, in an attempt to save energy for the war economy."
Not much impact on December events though.....
Br
Göran
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  #23  
Old 17th March 2014, 13:25
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

Hi Göran,
It is my belief, that the British T/O times are in error.
bregds
SES
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  #24  
Old 17th March 2014, 14:56
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

Quote:
Originally Posted by SES View Post
Hi Larry,
Interesting analysis, but I also have a problem with the timing. The attached .pdf files are the log from the aircraft reporting center in the HQ of Luftgau XI, which at that time had the overall responsibility for air defense in the area in question. It records visual sightings, which mostly must be from the intercepting fighters and they are in the 1420 - 1542 timeframe. That does not compute with a take-off time of 8:55 - 9:40. And this discrepancy cannot be explained through a time zone difference, which might have been one hour.
The positions given in the four digit format are based on the German reporting grid described in an additional .pdf file.
bregds
SES
IMHO the times are not hopelessly off, Wimpy Mk I needed 25min to climb to 10 000ft with max weight and its most economical cruising speed was 165mph at 10 000ft. Wimpies were forming up above Kings Lynn at 10.00 GMT. I doubt that those Wimpies that took off at 9.40 were using max power climb to meet the formation. If we give some time to them to find their place in the formation and assumed that they were still somewhat under 10 000ft when they departed to the East, they would have been in still air condition around noon GMT/1300 MET where Germans got their first Freya contact to them at 1323MET. If they met head winds in the way IMHO the times are still possible.

Juha

PS and thanks for the scans!

Last edited by Juha; 17th March 2014 at 15:01. Reason: Adding the PS
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  #25  
Old 17th March 2014, 19:04
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

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Originally Posted by SES View Post
It records visual sightings, which mostly must be from the intercepting fighters and they are in the 1420 - 1542 timeframe.
SES
Hello, many thanks to you for the interesting pdf files. Do you have the page starting with 14.20 hours also ? Maybe this one could help solve the whole mystery around the story about the bombing mission.
Of my actual research I can add the info that "15.42 & 19.39" hours refer to the both Wellingtons which ditched in the North Sea on the way back close to the English coast.

Regards,
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  #26  
Old 17th March 2014, 22:58
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

Sorry I omitted that in my first post, but please find it attached.
The positions are as follows:
05 Ost 7425 53*54'N07*41'E
7422 53*59'N07*41E
7579 54*04'N07*21'E
7588 54*04'N07*41'E
The flight time from East Anglia to Borkum is about 3 hours, if they left the UK coast at 0930 the first a/c should have been at Borkum at 1330 German time.
It is my understanding, that BC raids were not conducted in the type of formation we later see employed by the 8 AF. The squadrons were tasked to attack a target and it was up to the individual plane captains (aircraft commanders) to chose the route and timing. This at least was the CONOPS until the advent of the bomber stream.
bregds
SES
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File Type: pdf Helgoland 18 Dec 1939 page 0.pdf (102.6 KB, 29 views)
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  #27  
Old 17th March 2014, 23:37
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

Hello SES
what you described was the early method during night attacks, in daytime the planes flew in close formations for mutual support, the formation keeping was taken very seriously. The formation flew around Helgoland, turned south flew past Bremen, turned west, then north past Wilhelmshaven, then NNW, then part of the formation turned west flying a bit north of Frisian Islands, this formation was intercepted at 1435 MET, the formation which continued NNW was intercepted at 1430 MET. That according to the map inShores' Fledgling Eagles.

Juha
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  #28  
Old 18th March 2014, 15:26
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

Larry did not want to revive a heated discussion, but my comment to the routing described is YGABSM, please see the picture attached. The target is Wilhelmshaven, they fly past the target in close proximity, perform a totally, uncalled for deep inland penetration and the attack the target from the SSE, and that without being detected by a single FLUKO and reported by Lg XI.
According to a most authoritative published German account the formation was first detected by radar at 1300 local time and fighters were scrambled at 1320.
bregds
SES
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File Type: jpg Map 18 DEC 1939.jpg (73.7 KB, 56 views)
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  #29  
Old 18th March 2014, 16:02
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

Hello SES
there is a mistake in the map that I didn't notice, what is in the map labelled as Bremen is in fact Bremenhaven, so the formation flew according the map in the Shores' book just west of Bremenhaven, continued a bit more to SSSE, then turned to west, then north, flying over Wilhelmshaven, then circled over Jade Bay and then departed to NNW. The first radar contact at 1323 MET was appr. up north from the second eastermost Netherland Frisian Island and appr west of Helgoland. Ie appr. 54*07'N 6*36'E

Juha
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  #30  
Old 18th March 2014, 16:48
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Re: Posting to the Allied Discussion form on British forces present at the Battle of The Heligoland Bay: 18 December 1939

Hi Juha,
Thanks for the clarification.
bregds
SES
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