Death of Maj Kurt Schede I/KG 50

[Chris Goss]

I would agree with Stig. German records state he crashed or was killed at 1600hrs at Poljakowka which is nowhere near where this book claims (in fact over 2,000km away)

[Adriano Baumgartner]

This is why I asked the question...the authors inform that evidences (parts of the aircraft, probably the EKM and pilot's badge) were found.
I would be interested to see those images of those evidences they say that exist....and eventually the burial place of the airmen (if they were really found).
From where they got this information is a mistery.
I do have Schede's NVM but not a hand right now, since am far away from home...and a good picture of this officer (Studio image), hence my interest on his story.
Anyway, maybe the authors can add something or someone from the Russian side...I believe that if some parts of his Memorablia were found (EKM, Pilot's Badge) that he deserves a full military funeral on the spot the plane crashed.
A.

Balka Talovaya
Балка Таловая
Ravina
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...q1v4?entry=ttu

We can see that this place is some 5 km to the East of Kotelnikovo, some Km WSW of now Volgograd (Stalingrad).

We know from reports that the weather was not good. If we do follow up the route from Zaporoshye we can see a certain logic to "follow up" the river up to Mariupol, Rostov and then keep following the Don river upstream (VOR = visual over the River). They may have not found the correct place to drop the supplies and may have decided to return by the same route (visual over the river). I can see no historical problems at all on what has been described by the Russian authors so far....

Chris could you inform us where Poljakowka is (or where in WW2)?
I have tried to find it on Google maps but got no joy at all....

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Balka Talovaya
Балка Таловая
Ravina
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...q1v4?entry=ttu

We can see that this place is some 5 km to the East of Kotelnikovo, some Km WSW of now Volgograd (Stalingrad).

We know from reports that the weather was not good. If we do follow up the route from Zaporoshye we can see a certain logic to "follow up" the river up to Mariupol, Rostov and then keep following the Don river upstream (VOR = visual over the River). They may have not found the correct place to drop the supplies and may have decided to return by the same route (visual over the river). I can see no historical problems at all on what has been described by the Russian authors so far....

Not sure I follow you here Adriano
I already asked if Talovaya Balka is the same place as Balka Tolovaya. IF it is, then the statement from the authors
it is in the Svitlovodsky district of the Kirovograd area, now in Ukraine can't be correct. This Balka Tolovaya is
nowhere near Ukraine unless Ukraine's borders were entirely different in 1943 and we would also need to
locate a Kirovograd somewhere in the vicinity, which I can't!
Also when it comes to navigation, we are not talking about some newbie here. We are dealing with the CO
of a newly formed He 177 bomber unit. Surely that crew would be very experienced even if they were new to the Eastern Front.
Finally it would also mean that the Germans themselves had no idea where Schede went down and made up a
report based entirely on guesswork.
Things just still don't add up to my satisfaction....
Cheers
Stig

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Chris thanks for the NVM which confirm Poljakowka as the place of death, circa 16:00hs.

The problem is that we do have two versions for the death of Major Schede:
1) That he landed at Gumrak and was killed by a Russian bomb whilst on a truck, on the SSE of Gumrak. (If so his plane would have not being listed as 100% destroyed and missing in action);
2) That he was shot down by AA fire and crashed at Balka Tovalaya (ravina), near Kotelnikovo.

It seems that the Bordfunker radioded something about them being hit by Flak...Did the Russians intercepted the radio communication? From where the Russian authors got that information is still a mistery too....

POLJAKOWKA do exist...I found the name on the records of an Infantry Division here:

I./Pol 6 marschiert von Russkaja nach Ssewerny und wird mit Eintreffen dort S.D. 454 unterstellt.
1.4. II./Pol 6 marschiert von Troizkoje nach Ssewerny und wird mit Eintreffen dort der S.D. 454 unterstellt.
1./2.4. I./Pol 6 übernimmt Stellung des III./G.R. 375
2./3.4. II./Pol 6 übernimmt Stellung des II./G.R. 375
(T314 R718 XXIV. Pz.K. 000 536)
Laut Notizen über die Besichtigung der Küsten-Stellungen an der Mius-Halbinsel, Abschnitt Major Menke, durch den Komm. General, Major Herenburg, Lt. Franke vom 28.3.1943
...
08.40 Uhr Besichtigung des Landsitzes bei Poljakowka ...

Hier auch Sitz eines SS-Kommandos in Stärke von angeblich 1 : 10 zuzüglich 3 Mann SS-Miliz

Kommando-Führer Obersturmführer Brede (Abt. Rasse und Siedlung). Untersteht dem Höh. SS- u. Polizeiführer Russland-Süd in Kiew (ehem. Rostow), SS-Obergruppenführer Prützmann, Feldpostnummer 34546

Kommando beaufsichtigt angeblich Bewirtschaftung von Kolchosen und Sowjosen u.a. auch im Raum Matwejewkurgan

!!! Ausstellung zum Polizeibataillon 311 Jena !!! - Forum der Wehrmacht

!!! Ausstellung zum Polizeibataillon 311 Jena !!! - Forum der Wehrmacht
Hallo Forumsmitglieder Hier ein kleiner Einblick zur am 12. Februar gestarteten Ausstellung des Pol.Btl. 311 Je...

BUT WHERE is this damned place in this so vast Russian Land ???? and in a Country where the names of towns changed after WW2!!!!!!!

CAN a Russian Member of this Board or Ukrainian member of this Board give us a hand, to identify the correct place of this town in WW2?

Does Russian members of this board knows for instance from where both Dmitrys got their information that Schede's machine and Memorablia was found? Are there photos of the items found on the crash place?

Adriano

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Stig,
The problem is that when you use Google maps and digit Talovaya Balka, there are at least 4 similar named places....and no one near the other.

One of the 4 is that one near Kirovograd, where the authors said the machine crashed, as informed on the previous message of mine. Of course, if you choose one of the other 3 named places Talovaya Balka, they will not fit here...one such named place is far beyound Moscow and much further South.

A.

[ju55dk]

Death card clearly states Feindflug, and also Vermisst. Later changed to Gefallen.
Junker

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Stig,
The problem is that when you use Google maps and digit Talovaya Balka, there are at least 4 similar named places....and no one near the other.

One of the 4 is that one near Kirovograd, where the authors said the machine crashed, as informed on the previous message of mine. Of course, if you choose one of the other 3 named places Talovaya Balka, they will not fit here...one such named place is far beyound Moscow and much further South.

A.

Odd Adriano
When I enter Talovaya Balka I get two results, both of them spelled Balka Talovaya and none of them in Ukraine...
I also get one result for Talovaya (no Balka) and one for Balka (no Talovaya), none of them in Ukraine either.
Entering Kirovograd instead I get a place on map spelled Kropyvnytskyi (present name I guess?)
If that is the same place I can't see how Schede could have come down there since that would mean a terrible
navigation error.
This is becoming very confusing.....
Cheers
Stig

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Junker
Agree with you about the NVM. From where the information about him being killed by a bomb on a truck comes from, I do not know....but I have read something about (maybe on De Zeng's LW Files).

STIG
Balka Tovalaya #1 (North of Kurilovka)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...t6py?entry=ttu
Balka Tovalaya#2 (North of Volgograd or Stalingrad - East of Shirokov)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...v2kj?entry=ttu
Balka Tovalaya #3 (NE of Glubokii - East of Luhanski)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...sb3b?entry=ttu
Balka Tovalaya #4 (some 5km East of Kotelnikovo - seems to be THIS ONE)
https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...q1v4?entry=ttu

Adriano

[Matti Salonen]

I have written from the NVM at WASt the following:

1943-01-16, 1./KG 50, He 177 A-1, 15233, E8+FH, Bei Gumrak
Flugzeugführer Major Schede, Kurt
Kampfbeobachter Uffz Knehr, Maximilian
Bordfunker Ofw Hentschel, Hans
Bordmechaniker Fw Langenberg, Fritz
Bordschütze Obgfr Gajewski, Josef
Bordschütze Uffz Müller, Anton
Notlandung infolge Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %. Besatzung verstorben am Boden beim LKW-Transport durch Volltreffer einer schweren Bombe.

Matti

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Dear Matti,

Thank you so much for adding this information from WASt, which confirm what has been written on De Zeng Files.

The dead cards Chris Goss shared with me (from the full crew) do confirm that the time or their dismiss at circa 16:00hs and 3 Km NW of Poljakowka.

We know the weather was not particularly good. From the 5 machines from FKG 50, two returned with mechanical problems, one did not find the target and returned and only one completed the sortie. The machine of Major Schede was totally destroyed.

From the information you wrote, they apparently belly landed (we do not know where) and were being carried to Gumrak by truck when hit by a heavy bomb (either hit by the V.V.S. or shelled by Artillery - which is not clear).

Can any Russian friend or member of this board can point us where is Poljakowka on a WW2 map? Maybe this would give us a clue to where they belly landed or where killed.

What seems strange from the book I mentioned earlier is that it looks like the EKM or Pilot's Badge of Major Schede would have been found, thus confirming his identity and solving the mistery where he was killed (actual place). This is why it seems interesting to check from where this information comes from. And if those items were found they were probably photographed or are circuling around.

Matti, your information is quite interesting. Most probably the Russians were not aware that the He 177 was in operations. It would be nice to see if such a claim was submitted or how (what they registered) the Russian fighter pilots claimed that particular day.

Also the hour (16:00hs) informed on the dead cards may lead us to other interpretations...if this is the time they were hit on the LKW by a russian shell (Artillery) or heavy bomb (V.V.S.?). If so, they may have belly landed quite a lot of hours before....Sadly we do not have the time of take off from the 5 machines from FKG 50 (From Zaporoshye).

Matti, thank you again for your most valuable help on this Board (Forum) and particularly onto this thread.

Most humbly yours,
Adriano