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  #1  
Old 3rd April 2009, 15:26
rlapes rlapes is offline
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Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

Folks
I'm researching the RAF raid on Frankfurt AM on 22 March 1944.
I trying to untangle the nightfighter claims and need some expert help.

Just to start the ball rolling can you help with the location of Martin "Tino" Becker's claims.

Here is the raw data:
22.03.44, Oblt. Martin Becker, 2./NJG 6, 4-mot Flzg, Hamm-Paderborn 5.200m, 21.42, 2025/I, Anerk Nr.16
22.03.44, Oblt. Martin Becker, 2./NJG 6, v. Halifax, Raum Paderborn 5.000m, 21.53, 2025/I, Anerk Nr.17
22.03.44, Oblt. Martin Becker, 2./NJG 6, 4-mot Flzg, 130 ° Frankfurt-Main 5.000m, 22.10, 2025/I, Anerk Nr.13
22.03.44, Oblt. Martin Becker, 2./NJG 6, 4-mot Flzg, N.W. Frankfurt-Main 5.200m, 22.29, 2025/I, Anerk Nr.15
22.03.44, Oblt. Martin Becker, 2./NJG 6, v. Halifax, N.W. Frankfurt-Main 5.200m, 22.38, 2025/I, Anerk Nr.20
22.03.44, Oblt. Martin Becker, 2./NJG 6, v. Halifax, ca. 150 km. N.W. Frankfurt-Main 5.200m, 22.39, 2025/I, Anerk Nr.21

Here are the locations:
1. 21:42 between Hamm and Paderborn
2. 21:53 around Paderborn
3. 22:10 130° Frankfurt-Main [I assume 130° is the bearing to FF i.e. WNW to NW from FF]
4. 22:29 N.W. Frankfurt-Main
5. 22:38 N.W. Frankfurt-Main [Since this is 1 min before the next claim I assume this is also somewhere near Bonn too]
6. 22:39 ca. 150 km. N.W. Frankfurt-Main [150km NW of FF is somewhere near Bonn]

And now the questions:
Raum/around - what sort of radius might this cover? 5,10,20km?
Bearing from a location - we can see from claim 6 this sort of location can be a long way from the reference point e.g. Frankfurt.
So how do I interpret a simple NW from a location?
Are these the locations of the attacks or the confirmed crash site of the claim?
How do I reconcile these locations with the locations of crashed a/c that are attributed to Becker?

Crash sites:
Candidates for claims 1 and 2 are:
ND672 at Beckum (17km NE Hamm) - I estimate crash at 21:32
JB151 at Welver (12km SE Hamm) - I estimated crash time at 21:36
DV384 at Obermelbecke (70km SE of Dortmund) - I estimated crash time at 21:45
Claim 3:
22:10-15 LL717 crashes Hausen nr Usingen 30km NNW Frankfurt - this is a close match with 3

Claim 4:
22:29 ND358 crashes Brauneberg 140km WSW Frankfurt - this is not a close match. What could the explanation be?

Claims 5 & 6:
There were diversion raids on Bonn but no reported losses.
I cannot find any matches for these claims. What should I conclude?


Sorry for such a long post.

regards
Robert
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  #2  
Old 3rd April 2009, 22:19
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FrankieS FrankieS is offline
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Re: Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

Hi !
From the "lost bombers" website here is a list of all losses at Germany.
I have attached a map with markings.
There are also 7 losses with "crash site not established" but airman
buried at war graves in Germany.

Besides the bigger town of Beckum (red circle) there is also a smaller
village Beckum (blue circle) in the Sauerland region.

Concerning the "Bonn loss", it could be the first one in the "crash site not established" list, these airmen are buried at a Cologne (Köln) cemetery (blue circle).

bye,
FrankieS
-------------------------------------------------------------------


22.03.1944
Lancaster ND351 Squadron 97 X1D OF-P Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1850 22Mar44 from Bourn. Cause of loss not established. Crashed in wooded and hilly countryside in the general vicinity of Hannover

Lancaster ND645 Squadron 35 X1D TL-O Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1846 22Mar44 from Graveley. Exploded, throwing clear the two survivors in the general vicinity of Hannover where four are buried in Limmer Friedhof.

Lancaster JB599 Squadron 626 X1D UM-Q2 Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1859 22 Mar44 from wickenby. shot down by a night-fighter and crashed at Blasheim, 3 km WSW of Luebbecke.

Halifax LW580 Squadron 158 X1D NP-O Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1907 22Mar44 from Lissett. Cause of loss not established. Crashed 2130 between Ummeln and Brackwede, 8 km SW of Bielefeld.

Lancaster JB151 Squadron 166 X1D AS-O Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1848 22Mar44 from Kirmington. Cause of loss not established. Crashed at Welver, where those killed were buried 25Mar44.

Lancaster LL647 Squadron 426 X1D OW-R Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1901 22Mar44 from Linton-on-Ouse. Intercepted outbound at 20,000 feet over the Ruhr and shot down by a night-fighter, crashing near Greffen, a small town 17 km NW of Gütersloh.

Lancaster Serial Number ND672 Squadron 49 X1D EA-U Operation Frankfurt Airborne 1911 22Mar44 from Fiskerton. Cause of loss not established. Crashed at Beckum, from where funeral services for those killed were reported.

Lancaster DV384 Squadron 50 X1D VN-V
Airborne 1859 22Mar44 from Skellingthorpe. Crashed near the village of Obermelbecke, 3 km NNE of Grevenbrück where they were all buried 28Mar44

Lancaster ND538 Squadron 44 X1D KM-T Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1856 22Mar44 from Dunholme Lodge. Crashed 2000 22Mar44 near Brauneberg on the Mosel, 6 km WSW from the town of Bernkastel- Kues.

Halifax LW512 Squadron 78 X1D EY-O Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1907 22Mar44 from Breighton. Shot down by a Ju88 from 18,000 feet near Trier. Out of control, the bomber plunged into the ground at Mohrweiler, 10 km NNE of Bitburg.

Lancaster LM422 Squadron 9 X1D WS-N Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1913 22Mar44 from Bardney. Thought to have crashed at Morscheid, 14 km NNW of Birkenfeld.

Lancaster LL717 Squadron 408 X1D EQ-W Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1852 22Mar44 from Linton-on-Ouse. Believed shot down by a night-fighter and crashed at Hausen, 3 km SW of Usingen.

Halifax LW540 Squadron 578 X1D LK-R Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1843 22Mar44 from Burn. Homebound, Shot down from 21,000 feet near Giessen by a night-fighter. With the starboard wing well alight, the crew abandoned at 17,000 feet.

Lancaster JB563 Squadron 100 X1D HW-G Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1903 22Mar44 from Grimsby. Hit by Flak while on the bombing run and within seconds was engulfed by flames.

Lancaster ND523 Squadron 7 X1D MG-X Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1902 22Mar44 from Oakington. Intercepted at 17,600 feet by a night-fighter while approaching target and set on fire. G/C.Rampling managed to clear the target area but within seconds of ordering his crew to bale out, the Lancaster went into a spin and exploded

Lancaster ND329 Squadron 103 X1D PM-A Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1904 22Mar44 from Elsham Wolds. Exploded and crashed at Rodelheim, 6 km WNW from the centre of Frankfurt.

Lancaster ND518 Squadron 44 X1D KM-D Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1853 22Mar44 from Dunholme Lodge. Crashed 2230 22Mar44 apx. 2 km SW of Kleinkrotzenberg, a small town on the W Bank of the Main, 6 km SW of Hanau.

Lancaster DS797 Squadron 408 X1D EQ-M Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1841 22Mar44 from Linton-on-Ouse. Crashed into the Gruneburg Parken in Frankfurt.

Lancaster ND649 Squadron 35 X1D TL-C Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1855 22Mar44 from Graveley. Crashed at Eachborn, 16 km NW from the centre of Frankfurt.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
crashsite not established:

Halifax LW417 Squadron 425 X1D KW-G Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1907 22Mar44 from Tholthorpe. Cause of loss and crash-site not established. Those killed are buried in Köln-Süd Friedhof in the Zollstock District of Cologne.

Lancaster ME666 Squadron 207 X1D EM-A
Airborne 1901 22Mar44 from Spilsby. Those killed are buried in Dürnbach War Cemetery.

Lancaster ME578 Squadron 50 X1D VN-K Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1905 22Mar44 from Skellingthorpe. Cause of loss and crash-site not established.

Halifax LW584 Squadron 432 X1D QO-Y Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1905 22Mar44 from East Moor. Cause of loss and crash-site not established.

Lancaster JB648 Squadron 106 X1D ZN-B Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 11845 22mar44 from Metheringham. Of those killed, three are buried in Dürnbach War Cemetery and three are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

Halifax Serial Number LK779 Squadron 432 X1D QO-W Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1855 22Mar44 from East Moor. Cause of loss and crash-site not established. Those killed are buried in the Hannover War Cemetery.

Lancaster DS741 Serial Number DS741 Squadron 426 X1D OW-T Operation Frankfurt
Airborne 1859 22Mar44 from Linton-on-Ouse. Lost without trace.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RAF losses 22 03 1944.jpg (167.4 KB, 97 views)
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  #3  
Old 4th April 2009, 00:47
rlapes rlapes is offline
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Re: Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

Hi Frankie
Thanks for quick response, the pointer on the other Beckum and the map.
Halifax LW417 is a good call too, I had this one down for more investigation.

I must apologise but I have the data from Chorley + Amendments and Lost Bombers. Thanks for posting it though. With the help of others I have been able to improve of some of their data. But as with all of this sort of research, it always seems to be work-in-progress. I will post it on the web when I have it tidied up. (If you are interested I can post my latest diagrams in another thread.)

Right now I want to focus on the raid from the Luftwaffe point of view.
I'm trying to create a time line of events that night.

To start off - I would like to plot Becker's movements during the raid.
For instance, does anyone know where and when he took off and landed?

Any input welcome.

Thanks
Robert
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Old 4th April 2009, 10:19
David P. Williams David P. Williams is offline
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Re: Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

Hi Robert,

According to his flight log book, Becker took off from Finthen (Mainz) at 20.20 hours and landed back at Finthen at 23.13 hours, after a173 minutes of flight. He was flying a Bf 110 coded MK.

Hope this helps,

David
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Old 4th April 2009, 11:41
robert robert is offline
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Re: Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

Hi,

taken from "Nachtjagd War Diaries Vol.1" by Theo Boiten:

21.42 - 166 Sqn Lancaster JG151
22.10 - possibly: 44 Sqn Lancaster ND518
22.29 - 44 Sqn Lancaster ND538
22.38 - 425 Sqn Halifax LW417
22.39 - 78 Sqn Halifax LW512

Regards

Robert
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  #6  
Old 5th April 2009, 00:11
rlapes rlapes is offline
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Re: Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

Thanks Robert

This is really useful stuff - does the book give details of the other pilot's claims made that night?

It sounds like I need to find a copy of the book.

Does anyone have any note on Becker's 2nd claim: 21:53 around Paderborn ?
I don't have my notes in front of me but I think the closest match for his 2nd claim is:
DV384 at Obermelbecke (70km SE of Dortmund) - I estimated crash time at 21:45

So I am happier with claims 1,2 and 3.
But I am still concerned that an experienced pilot like Becker reports claims 4, 5 and 6 as NW Frankfurt - when they all South of West.
Why might this be?

It is helpful to note that claim 5 22:38 LW417 should be close to claim 6 22:39 LW512 Mohrweiler. To attribute LW417 as claim 5 suggests that someone has identified it on the ground. So I wonder why Chorley or Lost Bombers doesn't have a record?

A few more questions if I may:
Did Allied aircrews sometimes confuse JU88's & Bf110's ?

What was a typical operational speed and range for a Bf110?

Wiki tell's me: Bf 110's maximum speed increased to a respectable 541 km/h (336 mph) with a range of approximately 1,094 km (680 mi)
(A quick car trip round the crash site gives 991km)

What systems would Becker's Bf110 been equipped with?

A quick summary of how it's shaping up:
Becker takes off 20:20 and heads North until he intercepts the bomber stream near Padderborn. He enters the stream and in the next 30 mins claims 3 victims. By now the raid on Frankfurt is well underway and Becker can probably tell this. So he goes looking for the returning bomber stream heading South he intercepts it between Mainz & Trier and in 10 mins claims 3 more victims. At this point either due to low ammo and/or fuel he returns to Finthen base at 23:13.

What do you think?
Cheers Robert
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Old 5th April 2009, 09:12
robert robert is offline
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Re: Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

Hi,

yes that book lists all claims made on this night and almost all claims made in the west by German Night Fighter Arm. Apart of this it is filled with personal accounts, stories, photos and other information`s.
So I think it is a must-have for you.

Regards

Robert
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Old 5th April 2009, 19:32
rlapes rlapes is offline
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Re: Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

Folks

Here's an updated diagram (.PDF) that summarises a lot of my research so far. It shows the raid route and the Lancaster & Halifax crash sites with the approximate time and, if shot down, who claimed it.
The blue shapes show the approximate time and area for a nightfighter claim. As you can seen they do not always match up.

What I hoped to understand with this thread is why Becker's claims are not always close to the crash sites.

Any feedback on how to improve the diagram welcomed. (I'll try and find a better colour blue for the PDF. It's OK as a .JPG but the file size was too big).

regards
Robert
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 22mar44 map v02.pdf (89.4 KB, 140 views)
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Old 9th April 2009, 23:15
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FrankieS FrankieS is offline
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Re: Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

nice diagram, super !!!
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Old 22nd July 2010, 09:56
Luke384 Luke384 is offline
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Re: Martin "Tino" Becker claims 22 March 1944

Hi,

this is an really interesting thread, especially for me, because I´m living about 25 kilometres away from DV384´s chrash side!!

Best greetings from Germany: Lukas
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