Losses of LW for the 16 oct 1944

[Many Souffan]

Hello, bonjour.

I would like to know if somenone can help me or maybe, where I can find the losses of the LW in the east for the 16 october 1944.

By advance Thank you.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Many, just wondering if you're interested in the 29 victories of Normandie-Niemen this day.

The Luftwaffe units involved in the day air battle were AFAIK JG 51, JG 52 and JG 54 and SG units (including SG 4).

I have few info on their real losses.

JG 52 lost only one pilot killed this day, Uffz Gunter Kunert.

JG 54 loss list has only one Eastern Front loss this day, Ofhr. Georg-Heinrich Koch of 6./JG 54 KIA in Luftkampf aboard Fw190A-8 WNr 380160 in Pl.Qu. 17487.

[Jean-Yves Lorant]

Good feeling, Laurent...Capitaine Roland de La Poype's biographer tries currently to find german losses corresponding to french claims on 16 october 1944. Having flown over 100 sorties, the pilots of Régiment de Chasse 3 "Normandie-Niemen" claimed 16 Fw 190, 8 Bf 109 and 5 Ju 87 as destroyed, two other Fw 190 as probably destroyed and two more Bf 109 damaged in the sector "Vilkavitchki-Chtaloupienen" that day! Big problems are in prospect...

A typical case of overclaiming ?

All the best

Jean-Yves Lorant

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

I am not entering an overclaimimg discussion, but have some numbers:

Aircraft missing/lost/damaged due to enemy action 16th October 1944:

Jagdgeschwader 51
Stab - 0/1/1
I. - 0/0/1
II. - 0/0/0
III. - 1/2/2

Jagdgeschwader 52
Stab - 0/0/0
I. - 0/0/0
II. - 0/0/0
III. - 1/0/0

Jagdgeschwader 54
Stab - 0/0/0
I. - 0/0/0
II. - 1/0/0
III. - 0/0/0

Schlachgeschwader 4
Stab - 0/0/0
I. - 0/2/0
II. - 0/0/1

For these units a total of

3 aircraft missing
5 aircraft damaged over 50% (lost)
5 aircraft damaged below 50% (damaged)

Regards,
Andreas

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Hi, Andreas,

This day the French pilots of Normandie-Niemen claimed 5 Ju 87. I have in my files that Ju 87 were lost during the month of October 1944 by the following units (not counting NSGr units):
I./SG1 (2 to enemy action)
10./SG1 (3 to enemy action)
10./SG3 (1 to enemy action)
all of which were operating over East Prussia
(and also by III./SG2 (1 to enemy action) and 10./SG2 (2 to enemy action), but both over Hungary, so outside of our study field here).

Can you please check the losses of SG 1 and SG 3 for this day, especially Ju 87s ? Thanks in advance

As for your list of losses, a French source describes a morning battle between JG 52 and Normandie-Niemen, with JG 52 boucing Soviet bombers with some success and then losing 5 Bf 109s. Oblt Rudolf Trenkel of 2./JG 52 and his wingman, Fähnrich Windish, were both shot down (first force-landed and then his Bf109 was strafed and destroyed, second bailed out). Both were apparently unhurt so won't be in surviving official loss lists.

Can anybody here confirm that Trenkel was shot down this day ?

Also, I any of the Russian contributors of this forum is reading this, it would be interesting to know how many victories were scored by Soviet units in the same area. From my only source ("Stalin's Falcons"), Soviet pilots scored also a number of victories this day.

The Soviet communique of 18 Oct 1944, midnight, reported a total of 73 enemy aircraft destroyed by Soviet forces aircraft (very probably including Normandie-Niemen) and AA fire on all fronts on the 16th. Ok it is not the best available source but at least gave an idea of what the number of claims was.

As for overclaiming, I'm quite sure the French pilots didn't shot down 29 AC this day... Twenty will be normal overclaiming, but the true number may well be less than that, given the number of units in the air this day.

[Many Souffan]

Thank you Laurent, Jean-Yves and Andreas for your answers

[Monaco]

Maybe these infos (which are far from being complete) from various sources are of interest:
North:
Trying to crush german Heeresgruppe Nord in the Courland Pocket 1st Baltic Front was beaten back on 16.10.44 in the first offensive with severe losses.
3rd Belorussian Front opened an offensive towards East Prussia. Defending the area was Luftflotte 6 which was considerabely reinforced by the arrival of units from other sectors including III./JG.51 from Courland and Stabstaffel, I. & III./JG.52 from Luftflotte 4. The following weeks would see large-scale air battles over East Prussia as LF.6´s 800 aircraft clashed with 3,000 aircraft of 1.VA and 4.VA in a relatively small area.
303 IAD (General-Mayor Georgii Nefyodovich Zakharov) was redeployed to 3 Belorussian Front at the East Prussia front-line after rest and re-equipment in October 1944 and had it´s best day of the war with 56 victories on 16.10.44 in combat over the Königsberg sector, 19 (or 20 Fw.190s – Seidl) by 18 GIAP (Podpolk. A.Ye. Golubev) in the Insterburg area plus 4 aircraft destroyed on the ground and 29 by Normandie Niemen. 18 GIAP had not a single loss. 303 IAD included 139 GIAP (Yak-9U), 18 GIAP (Yak-3) and the French Normandie Niemen regiment (Yak-3), 9 GIAP (La-7) under Mayor V.D. Lavrinenko and 523 IAP (La-5). By the end of the week of instensive fighting GC Normandie Niemen´s (303 IAD/ 1 VA, Major P. Pouyade) had claimed 92 victories in 480 sorties (operating from Antonous, Lithuania), but serviceability was heavily affected (see 28 October).
Mayor Semyon Alekseevich Sibirin CO of 1 AE/ 18 GIAP claimed 1 Fw.190 s/d over Insterburg flying a Yak-3.
Kapitan Vasilij Nikolayevich Barsukov (22+6 AV) CO of 2 AE / 18 GIAP claimed 1 Fw.190 s/d in a morning and 1 Fw.190 s/d in an afternoon sortie flying a Yak-3; he was to gain 7 victories over East Prussia.
Lt. Nikolai Grigor´evich Pinchuk (22+2 AV) flying a Yak-3 of 18 GIAP (303 IAD) claimed 2 Fw.190s s/d near Insterburg, East Prussia.
Kap. Nikolaj Nikitovich Danilenko (16+1 AV) claimed 1 Fw.190 s/d over East Prussia flying a Yak-3 of 18 GIAP (303 IAD/1 VA).
Claims by GC Normandie Niemen (99 to 127 for the Regiment): 16 Fw.190s, 8 Bf.109s & 5 Ju.87s.
16 oct. 1944; M. Challe; 2; BF109; Wyrballen; 99
16 oct. 1944; Perrin; 1,50; FW190; Eydtkunen; 100
16 oct. 1944; R. Challe; 2,50; FW190; Pillkallen; 101
16 oct. 1944; Matras; 1,75; BF109; Stallupönen; 102
16 oct. 1944; André; 2,50; FW190; Gumbinnen; 103
16 oct. 1944; Albert; 8,90; De La Poype; 5,70; R. Sauvage; 1,20; Marchi; 0,20 Taburet; 1,20; JU87; Pillupönen; 104
16 oct. 1944; Albert; 9,40; R. Sauvage; 1,70; JU87; Pillupönen; 105
16 oct. 1944; Marchi; 1,20; Ju87; Pillupönen; 106
16 oct. 1944; De La Poype; 6,70; JU87; Pillupönen; 107
16 oct. 1944; Taburet; 2,20; JU87; Darkehmen; 108
16 oct. 1944; Lebras; 1; FW190; Pillkallen; 109
16 oct. 1944; Carbon; 1; BF109; Stallupönen; 110
16 oct. 1944; Carbon; 2; BF109; Stallupönen; 111
16 oct. 1944; Pouyade; 3,34; FW190; Eydtkunen; 112
16 oct. 1944; Perrin; 2,50; FW190; Stallupönen; 113
16 oct. 1944; Amarger; 1,50; FW190; Stallupönen; 114
16 oct. 1944; Cuffaut; 2,50; FW190; Stallupönen; 115
16 oct. 1944; Cuffaut; 3,50; FW190; Gumbinnen; 116
16 oct. 1944; De La Salle; 1,20; FW190; Stallupönen; 117
16 oct. 1944; Charras; 1; FW190; Stallupönen; 118
16 oct. 1944; Delfino; 1; BF109; Darkehmen; 119
16 oct. 1944; Laurent; 1; FW190; Stallupönen; 120
16 oct. 1944; R. Challe; 3,50; BF109; Goldap; 121
16 oct. 1944; Genès; 0,70; Manceau; 0,70; BF109; Goldap; 122
16 oct. 1944; Martin; 1; FW190; Pillupönen; 123
16 oct. 1944; Albert; 10,40; FW190; Stallupönen; 124
16 oct. 1944; De La Poype; 7,20; Marchi; 1,70; FW190; Stallupönen; 125
16 oct. 1944; De La Poype; 7,70; Marchi; 2,20; FW190; Stallupönen; 126
16 oct. 1944; R. Sauvage; 2,20; Mertzisen; 0,75; BF109; Göritten; 127
Luftwaffe Losses:
JG.52 lost 6 Bf.109G-6s in combat over East Prussia, one was flown by 100-victory ace Oblt. Rudolf Trenkel of I. Gruppe, who baled out after being hit by a Normandie Niemen Yak-3 fighter. In the next few days Trenkel was s/d another four times each time bailing out safe.

[Many Souffan]

Thank you Monaco for these infos that I already have but not the infos of the victories of the russian Pilots.

It is interesting for Lavrinenkov because as his unit he flew in la-7 (n°17) but also in a Yak 3 (also n°17) it is very particular for a russian pilot to have 2 "kites"

to come back to my question, do you know if it is possible to have somewhere the victories of the 303. IAD during WWII

Thank you again for your help.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Would be interested to know what the source for 6 losses in I./J.G.52 are, to add to my own information. The I./J.G.52 has noted only one aircraft loss on the 16th, two on the 14th and four on the 17th.

Regards,
Andreas

[Monaco]

hello andreas,
the info is from"Jagdwaffe - WAr in the East Vol.5" (Bergström/Pegg) and it states 6 losses for the whole JG.52 this day (p.140)...maybe this was misleading, sorry.

regards

monaco