Me 163 at night?

[JDCAVE]

Does anyone out there know for sure if the Me 163 ever operated at night against RAF Bomber Command? My father, a pilot with 419 Squadron indicated that he saw these aircraft operating during an operation to Chemnitz, March 5, 1945. The comment in his log book states: Operations Chemnitz, March 5, 1945. Flak Nil. Bags of fighters and flares. Weather Rotten. He indicated that one of these aircraft (during a dive) shot cannon fire between Dad's main wing and tail plane. Is this a case of mistaken identity? One of my colleagues questioned this observation as most indications were that the Me 163 Komet operated during the day. Other possibilities for dad's observations could be Me 262, or possibly tracer from upward firing Schrage Musik.

Jim

[RodM]

Hi Jim,

it is most unlikely that the Me163 operated at the night, if only because, other than accidentially ramming a enemy aircraft, it is difficult to see what practical use this aircraft could be in the defence of the Reich at night.

From around October/November 1944 onwards, after intelligence reports about the Me262 et al were circulated within the Allied Commands, sightings and claims against 'jets' at night by Bomber Command crews rose dramatically. Sporadic combats were reported and claims made throughout October 1944, and on the night of 2-3 November, Bomber Command crews (all from 4 Group) claimed 8 'jet' aircraft destroyed, including Me163s and Me262s, while on 4-5 November 1944, Bomber Command crews claimed 21 'jet' aircraft as destroyed and another 3 as damaged.

Bomber Command HQ was rightly suspicious of the validity of these claims and an investigation was ordered. Among the various conclusions that resulted from this investigation were:

"At present reporting lights or explosions, or any such phenomena, as jet aircraft, is pretty fashionable." (4/11/44)

"While it is possible that the enemy may be experimenting in a small way with the use of his jet and rocket propelled aircraft by night, the weight of evidence suggests that the phenomenon that is being reported is an expendable projectile other than an aircraft." (6/11/44)


The trend of sightings and claims against 'jet' aircraft by Bomber Command crews continued throughout the remainder of the war. Bomber Command HQ remained doubtful about the validity of the claims, and it is interesting to note that a BCHQ summary of all Bomber Command claims against enemy aircraft for the month of March 1945 ('Monthly Supplimentary Narrative of Operations - 3/45', dated 26/4/45) concluded:

"The position regarding Jet aircraft and/or Rocket or Jet Projectiles is substantially the same as for previous months.

The following claims, which it has not been possible to assess satisfactorily, are not therefore included in this summary:-

Destroyed, 8. Probably destroyed, 1. Damaged, 1."

The Luftwaffe High Command produced daily air situation reports concerning the defence of the Reich (called Reich Luftlagemeldungen) that included details of the Luftwaffe defensive sorties flown against Allied raids. The reports for February and March 1945 survived the war, and now reside at the BA/MA archive in Germany. From these reports, which happen to specifically identify sorties flown by the Me262 and Me163, it is clear that no Me163 sorties were flown at night, and the only night-time Me262 sorties were those flown (by 10./NJG11) against Mosquito raids upon Berlin. The relevant report for 5-6 March 1945, shows that no jet sorties were flown at all on this night.

During the last seven months of the war, Bomber Command crews tended to report any unusual phenomena as 'jet' or 'rocket-propelled' aircraft. While it cannot be entirely discounted that some form of trial by such aircraft to combat four-engined bombers was conducted on a limited scale (if it were, no evidence has come to light to prove it), what the RAF crews were most-likely witnessing were the myraid of visual signals munitions employed by the Luftwaffe during the closing months of the war.

Cheers

Rod

[Nick Beale]

Interesting stuff from Rod (they started reporting exotic flying machines by day as well — one people had been briefed on new types, it seems they began "seeing" them).

As for the Me 163 at night, the problems of using a machine with a powered flight time of (IIRC) 9 minutes and no radar to find targets in darkness would be immense, I should think. Personally, I'd doubt they ever tried it.

[JDCAVE]

Thanks very much for that Rod. I believe my colleague has had some discussions with you on this subject. I wonder then whether Dad was attacked by a nightfighter with Schrage Musik that fortunately missed! Fortunate for me and Dad anyways! Would Schrage Musik Cannons cause any kind of light display.

In his Audio taped memoires, Dad reports this as a really hairy experience. It was his 27th operation so he had considerable experience to that date. The 28th op to Dessau on March 7, 1945 also had considerable night fighter activity

Jim

[RodM]

Hi Nick,

I believe that you've 'hit the nail on the head' - once crews knew of the existence of the advanced enemy types, sightings became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I know that Bomber Command had a difficult time entirely discounting the use of Me163s at night because crews would detail how they 'clearly saw the aircraft in the cone of a searchlight' etc, etc. What I didn't mention above is that during the November 1944 investigation, British A.I. chimed in and stated that they had no evidence (i.e. from sigint, and presumably also ULTRA and P/W reports) of deployment of jet/rocket-propelled aircraft at night. I think that A.I. may've got wind of Welter's late 1944 experiments at night with the Me262 (I haven't seen direct evidence in the form of an ULTRA decrypt or P/W report, but it was inferred in a general A.I. report that the Germans were known to be experimenting with the Me262 at night; the source of this intelligence was not disclosed), and the first solid intelligence from ULTRA about jet aircraft at night wasn't obtained until February 1945.

Cheers

Rod

[RodM]

Originally Posted by JDCAVE

Thanks very much for that Rod. I believe my colleague has had some discussions with you on this subject. I wonder then whether Dad was attacked by a nightfighter with Schrage Musik that fortunately missed! Fortunate for me and Dad anyways! Would Schrage Musik Cannons cause any kind of light display.

In his Audio taped memoires, Dad reports this as a really hairy experience. It was his 27th operation so he had considerable experience to that date. The 28th op to Dessau on March 7, 1945 also had considerable night fighter activity

Jim

Hi Jim.

my own opinion is that it is very difficult to work out exactly what a crew actually saw because the reports are usually phrased as if it was a jet/rocket aircraft attacking.

What is needed is a copy of the pro forma combat report that would have been completed by your father's crew. This would provide the most detail on the incident (pro formas were completed for all sightings and engagements with enemy aircraft, even if no claim for destruction or damage against the enemy aircraft was made). While the Bomber Command combat reports in British archives are woefully incomplete (most of the 1945 reports are missing), Canadian Archives do hold copies, and I would suggest that you contact Richard Koval, the webmaster at http://www.rcaf.com/6group/, as he holds a massive collection of copies of RCAF bomber squadron combat reports.

The narrative in the combat report would go a long way to helping you understand what the crew saw. You describe (if I understand correctly) that the enemy aircraft made a diving attack on the Lancaster, this would make it unlikely that upward firing cannon was used, unless the enemy aircraft dove under the Lancaster before opening fire.

Probably of more relevance is what led the crew to believe it was an Me163 in the first place. I mentioned that signals muntions were used by the Luftwaffe and this does explain a lot of Bomber Command sightings/claims (a large number of claims were made against 'rocket' a/c seen rising up from the ground at high speed before either exploding or simply dropping back to earth). What is not so clear are the cases where the enemy aircraft opened fire. Night fighters did drop 'fighter flares' during 1945, to aid other night fighters in finding the bomber stream.

I think in your father's case, his Lancaster was attacked by a twin-engined night fighter and it is too early to say, without a better description of the incident, what method of attack was employed (i.e. frontal or upward firing armament).

Cheers

Rod

[JDCAVE]

Again, thanks Rod for your insight into this observation. I will contact Richard, who I have been in contact with last summer.

Jim

[Kaczmarek]

Very interesting thread, especially for me. At Jim I have send you a PM.

Kaczmarek