#81
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JG 51 victories (Part 2)
Hi Nokose
I just want to express my gratitude to you for creating these threads and posting this type of information for us. Such information concerning the air war in Russia is much more difficult to come across for me, at least, so your posts are of great usefulness. Thank you so very much! Horrido! Leo |
#82
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Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
Quote:
What was said for 5 years, has been verified, it is not the plane of Paul de Forges (Yak-9 , side # 0435). According to the russian data Jean de Sibour was flying that day with yak 9 (side #0439) But a Yak-1b (serial number: 04142) of a Soviet unit that remains to be discovered. |
#83
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Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
Quote:
Full informations here. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=18216 |
#84
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Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
31 Oct 1941 Naro-Fominsk - Kamenka (Moscow area) 12:25 -13:20 (MT)
Oblt Gottfried Schlitzer 9./JG 52 shot down an I-61 (8) and another I-61 (9) at 11:55 with no location listed. Soviet loss: MiG-3 16 IAP Ml. Lt. Vasiliy Avdeev (KIA) 2 km SE of Naro-Fominsk 04 Nov 1941 Naro-Fominsk -Kamenka 13:20 - 14:10 (MT) I-16s of the 16 IAP attacked by 4 Bf 109. I checked all the German claims and only IV./JG 51 fit into this time period. Oblt. Helmut Lohoff 9./JG 51 claimed an I-16 (10) with no time and no location. So I can’t say positively that he was involved. Obfw. Bernard Lausch 8./JG 51 shot down an I-16 (22) at 12:40 and Uffz. Gerhard Wille 8./JG 51 shot down an I-16 (13) at 12:55, both didn’t provide a location but this unit was the only one making claims for I-16s in that area. The I-16 from the 16 IAP flown by Lt. Konstantin Korshunov (KIA) was the only 16 IAP loss. Last edited by Nokose; 1st March 2019 at 22:05. Reason: Correction on the name from Avgeev to Avdeev. |
#85
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Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
23 Oct 1941 Kamenka - Kamenskoe (Moscow area) 15:00 - 16:07 (MT)
Dogfight between 3 MiG-3 of the 16 IAP under Lt. Ivan Zabolotny. Lt. Zabolotny (in Russian Заболотный) shot down in that area a Me-109 (3) but is not confirmed in German records. Obfhr. Ernest Weismann 12./JG 51 shot down an I-61 (9) at 14:19, Lt. Wolfgang Böwing-Treuding 12./JG 51 shot down an I-61 (5) at 14:25 and Obfhr. Weismann shot down another I-61 (10) at 14:26, both did not provide a location. I checked these claims against other German claims and these are the only one matching the time period in this area. According to the Journal of Combat Operations of the 16 IAP, only one MiG-3 was shot down but I couldn’t find the pilot’s name. |
#86
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Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
Michael, good evening.
It is very difficult to compare claims in the area during this period. There were a lot of regiments on the MiG-3 and there were a lot of losses. Two weeks ago, in this area, dig up MIG-3 177 IAP - also allegedly crashed on 23.10.1941. Also these days there were a lot of losses a little to the north, where JG51 planes also flew. Found in this area about 20 MiG-3. And a lot has not been found. |
#87
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Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
Hello Kirche, unfortunately, most of all the German claims for 1941 left out their location. So the times are the only things putting them in these areas. I checked all the other claims for the times of 23 Oct 1941 and this is the only one falling in the Soviet mission time period. So “Possibly” is the only thing that can be used in guessing any claim but this one does seem very close. I went through many reports around the advance to Leningrad and found a lot of Soviet aircraft reported shot down by Bf 109 but no matching German claims. Actually, I saw more Soviet aircraft reported shot down by Bf 110 then in surviving German records for those type units. I would be glad to hear more about the recovered 177 IAP MiG-3. Uffz. Günther Schack 7./JG 51 was shot down on the 23 Oct 1941 and would be curious as to who got him but I don’t think it was Zabolotny.
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#88
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Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
If you have checked out allaces.ru at the episodes in the past, I have another concerning this site.
18 October 1941 It has a bombing raid involving the 42 DBAP in which it describes a section of 3 DB-3. The heroic struggle that is described is from a 1987 writing. Unfortunately, the two shot down crews had no survivors to pass along what happened during that battle. Here is the actual incident from the report. The 42 DBAP sent 10 DB-3 to bomb German forces at Lotoshino - Vorob’evo. They were intercepted by Bf 109s as they left from their mission. DB -3 flown by Mladshiy Leytenant Nikolay Shein and his crew were listed as MIA in their case it isn’t known if they fell to AAA or fighters. In the case described the loss: DB-3 42 DBAP Starshiy Serzhant Ivan Rodin and crew (MIA) to Bf 109s DB-3 42 DBAP Starshiy Leytenant Sergey Lifanov (Deputy AE CO) and crew (MIA) to Bf 109s Hptm. Karl-Gottfried Nordmann Stab IV/JG 51 DB-3 (63) 10:20 East of Medyn Lt. Hans Boos Stab IV/JG 51 DB-3 (13) 10:25 8 km East of Malojaroslawetz No Bf 109s were reported as lost. Two of the DB-3 were type A and one type F but I don’t have know which types were flown by which crew. |
#89
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Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
05 November 1941
Journal of Combat Operations of the 34 IAP (TsAMO, f. 22075, O. 0600156, d. 0004, l.1)8 Soviet fighters of the 34 IAP intercepted in the area of Dorokovo, 9 Ju 87 and 9 Me-109 between 11:04 - 11:45 (M). Kapt Zakhar Andreevich Durnaykin’s MiG-3 was shot down (probably by Ju 87 gunners) and he paracuted to safety and returned to his regiment. Leytenant Aleksandr Fomich Koda’s MiG-3 was shot down by German fighters and was listed as MIA by his regiment. Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Aleksandrovich Aleksandrov was listed in the journal as having shot down a Ju-87 with rockets in the journal (on his victory score he was credited with a Ju-88 (5) at Dorokhovo) . Unteroffizier Wilhelm Theimann 3/JG 51 I-61 (10) at 10:25 no location given The rest of the story concerning Koda discovered this year. Operational intelligence report of the department of Air defense 33rd Army (TsAMO. F. 1238, o. 1, d. 11, l.67 page 1) Throughout the day is marked by a number of air battles, in one of which at 11:20 05.11.41 2 Me-109 shot down 1 MiG-1 in the area 200 mt north of the village of Syryevo/ 20 km northeast of Naro-Fominok/. It was not possible to establish the identity of the pilot and machine. Pilot and machine burned. The pilot was buried at the site of the Emergency Medical Battalion 1 GMOD. The remains of the pilot received a proper marker and funeral this year. |
#90
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Re: JG 51 victories (Part 2)
Quote:
The details of this story became known back in 2019-2020, but the exact place of the fall has not been found and the story is not over. The primary burial site still bears the name of another pilot (Sergeant Antokhin), as he was mistakenly identified in the 1970s by schoolchildren based on the memories of veterans. The remains were transferred to the military memorial in Selyatino back in 1975. It is very difficult to establish the exact crash site of the Mig-3 and confirm the type of aircraft of Lieutenant Koda in Syryevo - that area is now heavily built up with private property. We hope to find the crash site of the second plane (Sergeant Antokhin's P-40) near Vnukovo airfield. This fall, the wreckage of an American plane was found nearby, but it looks like it was a C-47. Best regards, Kirill |
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