JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage

[JanZ]

Hi friends,
I am looking for any expert info, or at least opinion about following problem:

- In winter 1942-43 the Fw 190s of JG 54 were mostly painted by white winter color. There is possible to see that the original darker cammo is visible under this white. On this way I have these questions:

1) was the undersurface bottom side of the A/C also painted white, or there remains the original light blue color... (the old 64, or 65 or even 76???). In publications is possible to see many profiles where the A/C is completely white... but I am worry if this is correct...

2) what was basically the original cammo for upper side of 190s of the JG 54 from Autumn 1942? Grey based cammo or Green / Brown based?

Thanks for any opinion....
Best regards, Jan

[Jim P.]

The answer to question 2 I think is fairly easy - JG 54, as far as I know, did not receive any 190s until very late in 1942 and the one recorded loss I have occurred on 28-Dec-42 at Heiligenbeil in Germany, presumably during re-equipping/training/familiarization.

[JanZ]

Jim, thanks, this helps of course... so please do you know what factory cammo these fresh new Fw 190s had ?
Thanks, Jan

[markjsheppard]

Jan

The 190's left the factory in ther standard 74/75/76 camouflage colours of the period.

Jim P was correct with Heilenbeil - this was when the re-equipping of JG54, I Gruppe began. Others would follow in 1943.

JG54 used a combination of colours in the field. Two greens were a common finish as was green/brownviolet/tan was another wither in clear demarkation lines or more radom mixes of colour. It is very interest to see and the three colour combination was clear on Fw190A-5 1227, White A of 4./JG54 which was recovered in 1991. This aircraft was picked up in April/May Germany painted 74/75/76 and was lost on 19th July 1943 outside Leningrad (St Petersburg) with green/brownviolet/tan upper colours. The underside 76 did not change.

Hope this is of help.

regards

MS

[JanZ]

Mark,

many thanks for your reply. I did believe this, thank to you and Jim for confirmation.

One more ask, please - do you can describe the "tan" color... any equivalent in RLM? Do you mean the sand patches used in JG 54 during summer 1943?

Is there any website link or article source about the recovered W.Nr 1227?
It looks very interesting for me!!!!!

Thanks, Jan

[Christian Schulz]

It would be insanely difficult to determine with 100% certainty which colours were used on JG 54's Fw 190s, but it is a viable assumption that the older "green colours" RLM 70 and 71 were used. The "tan tone" could be RLM 79, but I have also seen a profile of a Bf 109 G-2 from summer 1942 which - according to Claes Sundin - used captured stocks of soviet AMT-4 (a light green which resembles the spring/summer environment of the birch woods of north-west Russia and the Baltics) so it might be possible that other captured soviet colours were used.

But there will probably never be complete agreement on the tones as the photographs of the time weren't particularly favoring colour research.

[markjsheppard]

Jan

It is all in Ken Merricks book. Originally thought as field applied colours, I beleive they do actually have RLM colours. At work but cannot remember them.

No website except a piece on You tube when it was discovered - type in Fw190 recovery or something. Few articles but very limited access due to it belonging to Paul Allen (Vulcan). I have photos etc but cannot divulge them due to aconfidentiality agreement I have signed.

regards

Mark

[Modeldad]

I for one do not believe the aircraft were painted in RLM colors. Given the fact that Hitler could barely supply the troops in Russia with warm clothes, food and munitions, I don't belive that paints, especially tropical colors, were supplied in quantity, if at all.

The Germans overran VVS airfields capturing a great deal of equipment. The camouflage paint of the time could vary well make for multiple greens that appear on the aircraft. Give the basic scheme was AMT -4 (Green) -6 (Black)Black and AII Dark Green, Green and Black adding a bit of black to the greens will give one colors close to 70, 71, and even 80, 82 and 83. As for the brown there is AMT-1, in both a light sand and dark version.

It would not be the first time the Luftwaffe used captured stores to equip Luftwaffe units. It seems when Germany attacked France, the Luftwaffe used munitions captured in Poland, and in the bombing of th Britain, French munitions were used.

Also, the Luftwaffe had experience in mixing colors to obtain a desired camouflage scheme. The early grays used on 109s in the BoB were usually a mix of paints at unit level, and not factory supplied 74/75.

Just need to think outside the confines of RLM numbers.

[Cpt_Farrel]

I aggree that one shouldn't get stuck in RLM numbers only, but they are still a possibility. A total repaint wouldn't be done in the field anyway. It would be done at depots and besides, they got the fuel they needed so why not the paint?

AMT-4 looks about right compared to certain colorphotos but there are others that looks very much like RLM 61/81 and RLM62/82...

/Anders

[Modeldad]

But fuel is as essential as food. Paint is not. 60Kg can of paint or the same amount of aviation fuel in a Ju 52? Hmmmmmm.

As for the reference to use of 81/82/83, don't these colors post-date the painted aircraft in question?