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  #11  
Old 11th October 2017, 22:27
Allan125 Allan125 is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Semenza View Post
59 Sqn. was never equipped with Spitfires. It used Hudsons and then Liberators and Fortresses.

P7904 was indeed with 130 Sqn. Shot down on 21 Aug. 41. Its pilot P/O Henry Webster Pickstone (67064) became a POW.

Tom
However Tom, this is not P7904 as that crashed at sea, which this plainly didn't:

On 21st August 1941 6 Blenheims of 107 and 6 of 114 Squadron were sent out to bomb the Hoogovens (iron foundry) north of Ijmuiden, The Netherlands. The Blenheims were escorted by 10 Spitfires of 66 Squadron, 8 of 130 (Punjab) Squadron and 8 of 152 Squadron.

The first wave (107 Sqdn) took off at 07.00 hrs from Great Massingham, Norfolk and attacked the target at 09.18 hrs local time. The bombs were dropped from 50 ft and were reported to hit the rolled steel plant at the north side of the target, as well as the cooling tower. Other bombs fell near one of the blast furnaces.

The second wave (114 Sqdn) took off at 07.10 hrs from West Raynham, Norfolk and attacked the target 2 minutes later at 09.20 hrs local time. The bombs were dropped from 50 ft and fell between a row of chimneys in the middle of the complex which caused a lot of smoke.

After the attack the Blenheims attacked barracks in the dunes south of the harbour entrance. Hoogovens reported 23 bombs and several incendiaries on the complex from which a number failed to explode. The Central Engineering shed received a direct hit which damaged several machines. At the saltpetre works the ammonia gasometer and a steel tower were damaged. Also an office and a ship in the harbour were damaged and there were several casualties amongst the civilian labourers. Several German soldiers were killed too, amongst whom an important architect whose body was brought back to Germany. During the attack at the barracks several Germans from the cavalry were killed. The Blenheims of P/O Robinson and Sgt Anderson from 107 Squadron were damaged, and the Blenheims of the second wave reported many Bf.109’s.

The escorting Spitfires joined the formation at 07.20 hrs local time. The 8 Spitfires of 130 Squadron were bounced on the way back by a couple of Messerschmitt’s. 20 year old P/O William Roy Bloyce 67053 RAF VR in P8370 was shot down into the North Sea at 09.25 hrs local time at 30 ft altitude by Gefr. Schumacher, 1.E./JG3, 15-20 kilometres West of Ijmuiden. It was his first victory. The Spitfire was a so called presentation aircraft and was nicknamed ‘Oldham’. The radio letter is not known. The body of P/O Bloyce has no known grave and his name is engraved in panel 21 of the Runnymede memorial.

"The Spitfire of P/O Henry Webster Pickstone was hit by Flak at 09.20 hrs local time. His Spitfire crashed into the North Sea, South of the harbour entrance. He managed to bail out and was slightly wounded picked up by the rescue boat (Flugsicherungsboot) FB-308, which had sailed off at 09.50 hrs local time. P/O Pickstone was brought to the harbour doctor and after having been treated for his wounds picked up at 13.50 hrs by the Luftgau Holland (German regional command) and brought to airfield Bergen, home base of the unit 1.E./JG3. P/O Pickstone was initially held in a hospital in Amsterdam, then eventually sent to Stalag Luft III, via Dulag Luft at Frankfurt, Oflag XC in Lubeck and Oflag XXIB at Schubin. In a 1992 letter to a friend he advises that whilst at Stalag Luft III, as a pre-war architectural student, he had the job of designing a stone memorial with a wooden cross, and a wooden fence around the whole thing. It is very likely that the ashes from the fifty who were shot in “The Great Escape” were put in the same area. Not only did he design the thing, but got to help make it, and then went out on parole to install it.

Raid information kindly supplied by Hans Nauta, and personal information and photo (of Henry Webster Pickstone) kindly supplied by David Pickstone, and of course Ijmuiden is not anywhere near to Alderney!

And for Kaiyan - I would respectfully suggest you change the titles of your photos - which I also have copies of, although this one is new to me. Unfortunately I do not go back that far with the 130 (Punjab) Squadron ORB to see if the Form 541 contains any details

Allan
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Last edited by Allan125; 11th October 2017 at 23:10. Reason: additional piece for Kaiyan
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  #12  
Old 12th October 2017, 16:50
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

Allan

Out of interest what kind of mission was this?
Checking my own sources (second hand of course) I have Norman Franks saying 130 Sq was on a Circus when the two pilots were lost, but in his book about Circus missions on the 21st he make no mention of any 130 Sq escort.

Foreman states 130 Sq was on a Roadstead which makes absolutely no sense with the details you provide.

I can think of a Ramrod mission which I believe closely resembled the Circus jobs. Any idea? Can you or anyone else also say what was the difference between a Ramrod and a Circus mission?

Cheers
Stig
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  #13  
Old 12th October 2017, 17:12
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossa...RAF_code_names
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  #14  
Old 12th October 2017, 18:09
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

Sorry Kutscha

All it says is what I already know. I am curious about the difference not the similarity....

Cheers
Stig
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  #15  
Old 12th October 2017, 18:27
Tom Semenza Tom Semenza is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan125 View Post
However Tom, this is not P7904 as that crashed at sea, which this plainly didn't.
Thanks for the clarification, Allan. The fate of P7904 and how Pickstone got out of it alive was not clear in Frank's Fighter Command Losses: "Circus 82. Shot down by flak, 0725. Stalag Luft III."

I certainly would be curious to know the serial on the PJ-N in the photo.

Tom
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  #16  
Old 13th October 2017, 21:39
Kaiyan Kaiyan is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

Thanks for the advice now I have a mystery to solve what is the serial of PJ-N, Could this actually be a Mk.Vb I have seen other 130sqd Vb's and the markings look similar..??
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  #17  
Old 14th October 2017, 10:25
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

There are countless errors in the Losses book so this does not surprise me
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  #18  
Old 14th October 2017, 11:52
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

This was a 12 Group Circus 2 to Ijmuiden.

The book referred to is very 11 Group-centric and missed out a number of 10 and 12 Group operations

Regards

Martin
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  #19  
Old 14th October 2017, 15:41
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

Thanks Martin

I see.... Seems I have to echo Chris thoughts.
Actually I had hoped for much more solid details in this Circus book.

So 10 and 12 Group had their own Circus numbers then. Can't say that it makes me very happy when one at least thought all such missions would be covered by the book in question

You don't happen to know the difference between a Circus and a Ramrod mission?

Cheers
Stig
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  #20  
Old 14th October 2017, 16:06
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: Spitfire shot down in Alderney

Yes I was disappointed with the book.

Circus = small number of bombers escorted by a large number of fighters - the main purpose is to bring the Lw fighters to battle. Hitting the target was good, but not the main purpose

Ramrod = bombing the target is the prime motive for the operation, fighter support is designed to protect the bombers

As the war went on Circuses disappeared but Ramrods continued right up to the end.

The main sequence was controlled by 11 Group - Circuses, Ramrods, Rodeos etc all get a number in sequence (or nearly so) I have Circuses to at least C-315 and Ramrods to R-1559. There are also oddities like the Starkey raids that have their own numbers.

10 Group started off calling the operations by different names - Mandolin, Warhead, Gudgeon, Blot just to confuse everyone. Then it conformed to 11 Group names. There are 10 Group Circuses up to at least C-58 and 10 Group Ramrods to R-98

12 Group came a bit later to the game and followed 11 Group nomenclature. There are 12 Group Circuses up to C-11 and Ramrods to R-28

To really confuse things occasionally two groups will act together, mostly they use the 11 Group number, but occasionally both groups use the number from their own sequence for their contribution to that raid.

Regards

Martin
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