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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

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  #1  
Old 31st December 2014, 11:37
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Kari Lumppio
Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)

Hello!

These ended auction photos were pointed to me by a fríend. They show Soviet Hurricane after forced landing and inspected by German soldiers. There seems to be first snow on the ground, but the soldiers are still wearing summer clothing. RAF code looks to end with digits ...40 and there is darkish large number 02 on the fuselage side. The Hurricane still has the original weapons.

I assume (so caveat!) that this is an early loss in North. The little loss data I have does not give any individual details for the late 1941 Soviet Hurricane losses (= "early loss" in this context).

What is the Hurricane identity? Is anyone on this forum able to crack this case? Juri Rybin in Russia certainly has the best knowledge of the subject, but seems his published articles and book(s) are of no help. Nor are the Finnish archives as the loss clearly has taken place in the German held area.


Photo links:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/281530156722?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.de/itm/281530158361?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.de/itm/281530159442?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


Cheers and Success for all Forumers for the New Year!
Kari

PS It seems the larger photos are not available online any more

Last edited by Kari Lumppio; 31st December 2014 at 12:20.
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  #2  
Old 31st December 2014, 17:18
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)

Mots probably this is en ex 151. Wing RAF Hurricane IIB, All were handed over to 72. SAP VVS NF, which nad base in Vayenga. The losses in 1941 were very samll if Iam right remeber 2 planes, more were since April 1942

regards,
mw
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  #3  
Old 31st December 2014, 20:03
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: 78 IAP VVS SF? (E-Bay photos)

Small correction, it was rather 78. IAP VVS SF, which was created on 72. SAP VVS SF, and had got all HCs IIB from 151. WING RAF - 33 examples in X 1941. 10 of them were lost up to the end of 1941 - combat and non-comabt reasons.

regards,
mw
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Old 31st December 2014, 20:22
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)

Hello!

Mirek, thank You for the activity.

Forgot to add this in my opening post:
In his Red Stars 4 book (Lend-Lease planes) Carl-Fredrik Geust has listed 39 of the 40 Hurricane individuals of the 151 Wing (Fate of one Hurricane is unclear). None of them has RAF serial ending with digits ...40.

On the other hand Z4006, Z4018 from 81 sqn and Z4012 and Z4013 from 134 sqn were at Vajenga. If the last two serial digits were painted over, these could be candidates. The photo is not too clear in this regard.


I guess the plane in the photos is one of the first ones delivered directly to VVS. And I agree VVS SF unit is more probable.


Cheers,
Kari
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  #5  
Old 1st January 2015, 15:05
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)

BTW I have send a few years ago a small correction to him about his book Red Stars 4 (about HCs in Russia and 151. Wing too) with these numbers. He had mede small errors during rewriting, If I am right 2 or 3.

I have done and edited twice in Poland the story about 151 Wing in Russia, so I can make such correction. Mark Sheppard has a lot data about this wing, he is real an expet on this topic too.

BTW the serials of lost Hurricanes by 78. IAP VVS SF up to the end of 1941: BD822, Z3763, Z3977, Z4006, Z4017, Z5205, Z5207, Z5227, Z5253, Z5267

So it could be from then next planes lost in early 1942?

Regards,
mw
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  #6  
Old 2nd January 2015, 11:26
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)

Hi Mirek

Would you mind sharing your found faults with the rest of us?
I am sure those of us who have Red Stars vol 4 would like to correct it.

Cheers
Stig
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  #7  
Old 2nd January 2015, 19:37
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)

Hi
Ask Carl, it was a few years ago, I do not have this e-mail. But he had done some correction list to his Red Stars 4 and later despached all improvments to all interested. This is not any secret. Frankly it is an old thing, but not very, very.

Regards
mw
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Old 3rd January 2015, 16:33
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)

Hi Kari and Mirek,

Firstly Happy New Year and all the best for 2015.

Three very nice photos of a Hawker Hurricane IIB. Cannot ascertain whether it was a standard or a 'Trop' version that 81 & 134Sqn of 151 Wing were equipped.

From the evidence it would indicate it is a Hurricane ENDING with ...40. Generally the serials were not painted out by the VVS but still used as a reference in their records.

As there as no Hurricanes of 151 Wing ending with ...40 then this connection can be ruled out.

I know that the Soviet Hurricanes were being regunned by this stage but not all. Z5252 was still equipped with its standard armament when it was lost on the 2nd June 1942.

I am assuming therefore this Hurricane was one delivered in one of the first PQ convoys at the end of 1941, early 1942. I would hazard a guess it was lost April/May 1942 and this would be something Rune could check to see if anything tallies up. (when he returns from his warm holiday).

I wonder if it is still there at the bottom on the lake when the ice thawed in June?

regards

Mark

PS It could be Z2640 or BD740 which seem to have been shipped to Russia late in 1941.

Last edited by markjsheppard; 3rd January 2015 at 19:16.
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  #9  
Old 3rd January 2015, 18:55
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)

Hi Mark

The "Trops" modification were removed by Soviet mechanics soon after despach of 151. Wing from Russia. The plane could be shot down in the first half of 1942, so then it would be the 2. GSAP VVS SF (en ex-78. IAP and ex-72. SAP VVS SF). Between April-June 1942 the 2. GSAP VVS SF had sustained severe losses faiting versus Me 109 F of 6./JG 5, many HCs were lost then.
Armament modification were introduces in HCs a little bit later, but in 1942, in the second part.

regards,
mw
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  #10  
Old 10th January 2015, 11:49
debowa debowa is offline
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Re: Very early VVS Hurricane loss (E-Bay photos)

It's BH140, we have a few photos of this aircraft in our ww2images.com library. I've tried to add a link or upload the photo but with no success. Just google Hurricane BH140 and you should find our photos.
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