Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21st August 2023, 18:05
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,160
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
I./KG 51 1944

I./KG 51 began converting to the Me 410 in July 1943 for defence of the Reich operations but in November 1943 began retraining for night bombing missions against UK. By 6 Dec 43, most of 1 Staffel was at St Andre, 2 Staffel at Dreux and Stab I and 3 Staffel at Evreux. However, they were still not combat ready by the end of December 1943 so when did they go operational over England? I have them taking part on the attack on London 23 Feb 44 while their first combat loss was not until 21 March 1944. They then returned to Germany at the end of May/start of June to convert to the Me 262 having lost five Me 410A-1s up to 19 April 1944
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21st August 2023, 20:57
Karoband Karoband is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 807
Karoband will become famous soon enoughKaroband will become famous soon enough
Re: I./KG 51 1944

Hi Chris,

Jan Horn, in Das Flurschaden-Geschwader, (2010), pp. 10-11, has for the night of February 20/21, 1944, a raid of 200 bombers planned to take-off at "20:00 Uhr". He lists the crews of II./KG 51 that took part and adds this on p. 11:

"Auch Oblt. Werner Pape, Kapitän der 1./KG 51, fliegt diesen Einsatz mit. Diese Besatzung startet um 20:45 Uhr in der 9K+FH von Saint-Andre-de-l'Eure aus ... Während Pape um 23:00 Uhr in Soesterberg landet ...". I presume Horn got the date and times from the flugbuch of either Pape or his bordfunker.

best regards,

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 22nd August 2023, 10:47
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is online now
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,768
Nick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura about
Re: I./KG 51 1944

The British Air Operational Watch reports don't seem to mention KG 51 at all on any of the January or February Steinbock raids, meaning the Y-Service picked up nothing to identify them. Not until on 21/22 February was there traffic from an "unidentified unit", including aircraft "G", DQ+XV and DQ+XW, the latter two:
"identified as Me 410's, operated with Orly. Previous history shows these a/c to be connected with Orly and not with V./KG 2. It is suggested that the unit is equipped with Me 410's and located at Orly."
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 22nd August 2023, 10:57
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,160
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: I./KG 51 1944

Interesting. Oblt Eberhard Winkel/Fw Adolf Schwachenwald of 1./KG 51 were reported as flying a mission to London. If Pape was 1 St Kap (who had until recently been Unrau), who were 2 (Müller?) & 3 (Gutzmer?) St Kap as I do not have Jan's book

Last edited by Chris Goss; 22nd August 2023 at 11:54.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 22nd August 2023, 12:17
Karoband Karoband is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 807
Karoband will become famous soon enoughKaroband will become famous soon enough
Re: I./KG 51 1944

I think you have caught one of Jan Horn's errors. In his index Stellenbesetzung im KG 51, pp. 348 - 349, Pape is the Adjutant of Stab I./KG 51 until 14.03.1944 and Unrau Staffelkapitän of 1. Staffel 28.08.1943 - 24.02.1944. Indeed, Müller was Staffelkapitän of 2. Staffel 01.09.1943 - 08.10.1944. Gutzmer was Staffelkapitän of 3. Staffel ? - 04.09.1944.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 22nd August 2023, 16:45
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,160
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: I./KG 51 1944

Just going through NVMs and Pape is not recorded as St Kap but Oblt Richard Pahl, killed 19 Apr 44 is recorded as being St Kap. Unrau signs off NVMs as Stellv Gr Kdr from mid-March 44
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 25th September 2023, 14:29
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,860
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: I./KG 51 1944

KAROBAND,
Would it be possible to inform me the list of 3./Kg 51's Staffelkapitäns per Jan Horn's book?
This is what I do have from De Zeng's Files, but there are huge gaps on this list:

Major Otto Neuenfelde – killed 7 November 1939 over France or Ingolstadt.
Hauptmann Gerhard Plischke – killed 17.11.39 Hptm., Staka 3./KG 51 KIA - died due to oxygen starvation, He 111 H crashed due to disorientation in bad weather, crew bailed out - 5 km S of Untertilliach, 20 km SSW of Lienz, Eastern Tirol - during a leaflet raid to Bordeaux and Marseille. Buried at Schweidnitz (Neumühlwerk-Friedhof).
Oberleutnant Heinz Unrau - 1940 ?? (at least 300 sorties)
Hauptmann Josef Schölss ??.06.42 – 13.12.1942 (295 sorties)
Hauptmann Georg Holle – early 1943. MIA 24 February 1943. Credited with 331 sorties.
Oberleutnant Günther Loeffelbein appointed on 15th February 1943 Staka. Credited 272 sorties.
Hauptmann Hans Gutzmer ? 1943 – 29.02.1944
Hauptmann Wolfgang Baetz - ?
Hauptmann Eberhard Winkel ??.10.44- 02.11.1944
Hauptmann Rudolf Rösch 03.11.44 (?) – 28.11.1944
Oberleutnant Wolfgang Baetz ? – Feb 1945?
Oberleutnant Gustav Stephan 21.03.45 – 30.04.45

Adriano
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 25th September 2023, 15:00
Karoband Karoband is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 807
Karoband will become famous soon enoughKaroband will become famous soon enough
Re: I./KG 51 1944

Hi Adriano,

This is from p.349 of Horn's book:

3.Staffel
Staffelkapitän/Staffelführer

Hptm. Josef Schölß ? 25.05.1943
Oblt. Günther Löffelbein ? 19.09.1943
Hptm. Hans Gutzmer ? 04.09.1944
Hptm. Eberhard Winkel 05.09.1944 21.03.1945 +
Oblt. Gustav Stephan 22.03.1945 28.04.1945

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25th September 2023, 16:33
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,860
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: I./KG 51 1944

Jim,

My deepest gratitude for your kind help. Much appreciated.

Semper Fi

Adriano
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 25th September 2023, 16:35
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,860
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: I./KG 51 1944

Seems to be a great "blank" between 1940-1941 period.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I./KG 66 operating base(s) during 'Steinbock' London raid Sunday 20 February 1944? Simon Trew Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 21st October 2022 19:56
Info needed on Rudolf Walther saufaengerkid Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 21st November 2013 18:01
I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43 Evgeny Velichko Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 9 4th August 2013 23:20
KG 51 Air Combat Kills 1944 Chris Goss Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 30th December 2011 20:05
Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace? Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 6 25th August 2008 04:37


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net