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Old 10th September 2009, 13:33
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Me109E-1, 2./JG 76, Schwarze 7, crash site?

Hello Guys,

In is "Prima" site David Weiss did publish four pictures of this plane crash. look at that one for example.
http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/di...otonummer=5349

Site crash is being indicated as Markirch which actualy is Sainte-Marie-Aux-Mines/Markirch. This small city is situated in Vosges massif.

More recently (one or two month ago) three pictures of the same plane crash were put on ebay. On pictures back it was handwritten Le Mont-Dieu as being the place where the picture has been taken; hence where this crash happened!

Le Mont-Dieu is a very small community (25 Hab. to day) in Ardennes massif. Well! It's not exactly the same place!!
I tend to think Le Mont-Dieu to be the right place since crash time is May-June 1940 as indicated by David and since this place was one of the rare where French army (1er régiment de Hussards) did stop for three days german advance in May 1940. And I suppose too the air fights have been as hard as it was on ground....

So, the question is: Can somebody help?
French claims? LW losses?
I'll appreciate.

Regards,
Franck.
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Old 10th September 2009, 23:32
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Me109E-1, 2./JG 76, Schwarze 7, crash site?

Franck,

The EOE Working Group is pondering this same problem, as well as five other unidentified force-landed I./JG76 109s that came down during the late-1939 to spring 1940 period, none of which have reliable location or attribution info.

Just a few minutes ago, one of our members sent me this: "following the lines of Peter C.'s message I am inclined to make this the so far "anonymous" Emil of I./JG 76 lost on May 18th. Like I said before and as apparently Peter agrees this a/c had to belly land in the vicinity of Raucourt, close to Le Mont Dieu, which is about 50 km east of Réthel whereas La Fère, where Mannske is said to have come down, is a long way from where these photos were taken as it is close to Laon and thus about 100 km east of Raucourt. On one of the original photos I have got of this a/c it says that it was taken by the road from Stonne to Raucourt, whereas the photos up on eBay right now state that it was near Le Mont Dieu which would confirm the aforementioned location.

However, I have to point out again that "black 7" according to the photos I have was an E-1, whereas both losses on the 18th were reported as E-3s.

Although of course far from certain, I dare say that this was not Mannske's a/c, but rather that of a so far un-named pilot of 2./JG 76 who returned unharmed to his unit."

Unless someone else can clear up the E-1/E-3 discrepancy (the photos show an E-1, the Luftwaffe loss date shows both losses that day as E-3s) or has further info, this is where our work presently stands on this one. Unfortunately, I./JG76-II./JG54 is poorly documented for this sort of info, due the the fact that there were apparently few, if any, surviving and comprehensive photo collections that have ever surfaced from this unit. (Nor diaries, or other such supporting info). Thus most of these forced-landings remain anonymous as to dates, pilots or specific locations. We're about as close on "Black 7" as any of them. Perhaps Jim Kitchens or Christian Kirsch can chime in here and help solve some of these mysteries for us that are frustrating the hell out of everybody. We're pretty certain that Black 1 was the StaKap's plane, for 2./JG76. No proof that Oblt Joachim Wandel was flying it the day it pranged during the western campaign, but we've confirmed that it ended up in a salvage dump in the Arras-Cambrai area, before being sent to the repair depot at Antwerp, Belgium. Yellow 3 and 4 of 3 Staffel probably both came down during the fighting over the Sedan area in mid-May, 1940, with "Yellow 3," at least, probably coming down behind German lines. The I Stab a/c with the arrowhead stab marking probably dates back to either later, 1939, or early 1940. Strange camouflage pattern on that one.

Black 11 of 2. Staffel could be the Maanske loss but that is just conjecture at this point. Anybody else have anything to contribute to this one?

If anyone can help up put these planes at the correct places, on specific dates with names pilots, it would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
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Old 11th September 2009, 18:55
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Re: Me109E-1, 2./JG 76, Schwarze 7, crash site?

Hello Larry,

Many thanks for your answer and all explanations. Very Useful.
I understand we don't know - for the moment - who was flying this craft, but can we say for sure this pictured crash didn't happen near Sainte-Marie-Aux-Mines/Markirch? Or maybe I have to read your answer again??!!!

Regards,
Franck.
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