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  #11  
Old 17th February 2005, 20:20
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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The first mention of an F in his Flugbuch was 9 Oct 40-2 flights 1045-1215 and 1415-1420. He then went back to his E and back to an F on 20 Oct . He mentions an F-1 from 1 Dec 40, then an F-2 from 16 Jan 41. He only mentions Wk Nrs in 1941-5628, 5629, 6660 and 6060
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  #12  
Old 17th February 2005, 21:15
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Thanks Chris and Gielle
Now it is interesting. I have a confirmation there is no doubt SGGW was 5628 and ineed F-1 but when it was received? Anybody seen originally dated photos of aircraft with JG51?
Timing of production just do not fit for me!
And it seems the first Fritz kills were claimed on 22 October - a very messy day. Hmm.
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  #13  
Old 17th February 2005, 23:14
Gielle Gielle is offline
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Franek, the second picture of WNr 5628 I was talking about in my last post depicts in foreground the tail section, with 54 victory marks. Accordingly, the picture should be dated between oct 29 and dec 1, 1940, when Maj. Molders scored his 55th kill.
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  #14  
Old 18th February 2005, 00:20
Tom D Tom D is offline
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Molder's F-0

I contend that Molders did fly an F-0, and offer the following as evidence. In the article "The Ace That Never Was!" by Andy Saunders in Aviation News, 23 June 1999, which covers the story of Hptm Hans Asmus getting shot down on 25 October 1940 flying one of Molder's E Wk. Nr. 3737, quotes Asmus: "Molders was flying in the first of the new 109Fs." If the F-1 did not become available until November 1940 (see page 6 of Hitchcock's "Bf 109 F), then the 109 Molders flew on 25 October had to be an F-0

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  #15  
Old 18th February 2005, 15:37
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Tom
If Oblt. Claus failed to return in F-1 on 11 November 1940, then I assume Moelders got F-1 at the time as well and it must have been built considerably earlier. I am wondering if Moelders received a first series F-1 available in early October, remaining going for tests. Presumably after his first flights some snags were found and the aircraft was grounded for about two weeks. This makes sense for me.
But then, the question arises if F-0 was ever delivered anywhere but some test units.
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  #16  
Old 18th February 2005, 21:54
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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109F

Not an F-0 in the bunch -- losses thru Mar.41 -- and none at all in my database:

Bf 109F-1 5635 Claus, Oblt. Georg 18 1. JG 51 SG+ED 11-Nov-40 Stkp. POW after Luftkampf during Stuka escort sortie. First recorded 109F loss. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #2)-Vol.3; VLM; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.41; Ring, JG 51 loss list, p.45; Foreman, BoB:The Forgotten Months, p.68, 76; Messerschmitt Bf 109F, G & K, p.9 Themsemündung 100% F
Bf 109F-1 5640 Lohmann, Uffz. Heinz 1. JG 51 SG+EI 14-Nov-40 Injured in Notlandung due to fuel shortage during transfer flight. 2 reports, 1 Technical failure (Pihen), the other Notlandung due to fuel shortage. Germany Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #2)-Vol. 3; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.41; Schmoll, Die Messerschmitt Werke in Zwieten Weltkrieg, p.53 near Rockenhausen 70% H
Bf 109F-1 6627 Laumann, Fw. Oswald I. JG 51 18-Jan-41 Injured in Bruchlandung. Or III./JG 51? Germany Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.42; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.89; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.72 Fl.Pl. Mannheim-Sandhofen 75% H
Bf 109F-1 6637 Strauss, Uffz. Heinrich I. JG 51 28-Jan-41 Crashed. Pilot KIC? Or injured? Germany Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.85 near Darmstadt 100% H
Bf 109F-1 6615 III. JG 51 09-Feb-41 Bauchlandung due to pilot error. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.89; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.120 Wizernes 20% F
Bf 109F-1 6612 III. JG 51 09-Feb-41 Taxiing accident. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.89; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.120 Wizernes 10% H
Bf 109F-1 6626 Steckmeyer, Ltn. Adolf 11. JG 51 10-Feb-41 KIA in Luftkampf with Hurricanes of 249 Sq. Prien says accident. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.108; Ring, JG 51 loss list, p.46; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.124 Ardres 100% F
Bf 109F-1 5664 9. JG 51 12-Feb-41 Rammed an FW 58 WNr. 58393 from I./JG 3. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.89; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.133 Fl.Pl. Wizernes 40% F
Bf 109F-2 5698 Messerschmitt GmbH NA+YM 26-Feb-41 Bruchlandung. Germany Schmoll, Die Messerschmitt Werke in Zwieten Weltkrieg, p.55, foto Fl.Pl. Regensburg b H
Bf 109F-1 6602 Lesch, Uffz. Arthur 2. JG 51 05-Mar-41 KIA in Luftkampf with Spitfires from Tangmere Wing. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.42; Ring, JG 51 loss list, p.46; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.206 near Boulogne 100% F
Bf 109F-2 5405 1. JG 51 10-Mar-41 Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.42; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.215. Fl.Pl. Coquelles 20% H
Bf 109F-2 6668 1. JG 51 10-Mar-41 Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.42; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.215. Coquelles 15% H
Bf 109F-1 5615 2.Erg. JG 51 12-Mar-41 Bruchlandung. FR Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.114; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.220 Cazaux 45% H
Bf 109F-1 5677 Föger, Gefr. W. 10. JG 51 13-Mar-41 Bruchlandung due to pilot error. Doegen? Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.109; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.231. Charleville 90% H
Bf 109F-2 8131 Klee, Stfw. Hans 2 7. JG 2 SH+AK SH+AK 14-Mar-41 Killed in crash during evaluation flight for the Erla-Werk. Germany Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.1, p.156; Ring, JG 2 loss list, p.4; Foreman, 1941, The Turning Point, I, p.238 Dessau, near Leipzig 100% H
Bf 109F-1 6632 III. JG 51 14-Mar-41 Taxiing accident. Germany Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.89; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.238 Fl.Pl. Bonn-Hangelar 30% H
Bf 109F-1 6639 Vogeler, Uffz. Hans II. JG 51 15-Mar-41 Taxiing accident. Also reported as III./JG 51. Germany Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.70; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.89; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.243 Mannheim-Sandhofen 75% H
Bf 109F-1 6635 8. JG 51 schwarze 4 + I 15-Mar-41 Fehlstart. Germany Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.89; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.243 Mannheim-Sandhofen 80% H
Bf 109F-2 6696 Klager, Ltn. Ernst 22 7. JG 53 17-Mar-41 Fehlstart. Germany Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.274; Prien, JG 53, I, p. 322; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.247 Mannheim-Sandhofen 90% H
Bf 109F-2 Zerr, Uffz. Franz 9. JG 53 19-Mar-41 Injured, crashed on take-off. Germany Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.274 Mannheim-Sandhofen 30% H
Bf 109F-1 5606 Pirschmann, Gefr. 1.Erg. JG 51 19-Mar-41 Killed in crash. FR Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.114; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.254 Abbeville 95% H
Bf 109F-1 5650 12. JG 51 21-Mar-41 Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.109; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.260 Le Touquet 25% H
Bf 109F-2 12604 9. JG 53 21-Mar-41 Take-off accident. Germany Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.274; Prien, JG 53, I, p. 322; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.261 Krefeld 25% H
Bf 109F-1 5681 Leitner, Gefr. Franz 5. JG 53 23-Mar-41 Injured, crashing on take-off for Werkstattflug. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.239; Prien, JG 53, I, p. 322; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.269 St. Omer-Arques 90% H
Bf 109F-2 6686 Stab II. JG 53 schwarze <2 + - 24-Mar-41 Notlandung due to fuel shortage. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.239; Prien, JG 53, I, p. 322; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.271 St. Inglevert 20% F
Bf 109F-1 5638 Gollasch, Ltn. Josef 3. JG 51 SG+EG 25-Mar-41 Killed in FSA due to engine damage. Chute didn't open. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.42; Ring, JG 51 loss list, p.46; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.273 Rety near Marquise 100% F
Bf 109F-1 5695 10. JG 51 30-Mar-41 Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.109; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.284 Etaples 65% F
Bf 109F-1 6624 Saalfeld, Ltn. Enzio von 1 7. JG 51 wei§e 3 + | 31-Mar-41 KIA in Luftkampf with Spitfire from 91 Sq. (Sgt. Mann). Prien says Hurricanes. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.89; Ring, JG 51 loss list, p.46; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.287 off Cap Griz Nez 100% F
Bf 109F-1 6648 3. JG 51 31-Mar-41 Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.42; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.287 Coquelles 15% F
Bf 109F-1 6644 III. JG 51 31-Mar-41 Bruchlandung. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.89; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, I, p.287 St. Omer-Wizernes 70% F
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  #17  
Old 19th February 2005, 03:45
Tom D Tom D is offline
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Molder's F-0

Franek,

Here's what else was in that article "The Ace That Never Was!" :
" Some ten examples of the pre-production 109F (the F-0) were built and evaluated operationally by the Luftwaffe. That flown by Molders on this day carried the overpainted factory codes SC+CW but no tactical markings. The Werk Nummer is unknown, but later the aircraft is known to have carried 54 rather than 56 'kill' markings on the rudder."

Tom
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  #18  
Old 19th February 2005, 11:14
Gielle Gielle is offline
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Re: Molder's F-0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom D
Franek,

That flown by Molders on this day carried the overpainted factory codes SC+CW but no tactical markings.

Tom
Do you really mean SC+CW or SG+GW instead?
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  #19  
Old 19th February 2005, 16:23
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Tom
I have F-0 #1 being PH+BE and I do not expect remaining ones to have different codes. 'SC+CW' must be actually typo for SG+GW and I believe it was the first aircraft delivered to JG51 due to number of photos taken.
By the way, anybody have seen any photos of any other Fs taken at approximatelly the same time?

Jim
Thanks a lot - your post reminded me that I have a 'Foreman' on my shelf!
Entry for Bf 109F-1 5640 suggest the aircraft was transferred to the front on 14 November 1940. I understand small batches were delivered initially, perhaps the aircraft were still modified.
Some other entries look suspicious, possibly typo errors somewhere?
Bf 109F-2 5405 - not an F?
Bf 109F-1 5615 - it is F-0 serial!
Bf 109F-1 5606 - it is F-0 serial!
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  #20  
Old 20th February 2005, 11:55
Gielle Gielle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski
Tom
I have F-0 #1 being PH+BE and I do not expect remaining ones to have different codes. 'SC+CW' must be actually typo for SG+GW and I believe it was the first aircraft delivered to JG51 due to number of photos taken.
By the way, anybody have seen any photos of any other Fs taken at approximatelly the same time?
In Prien & Rodeike's work (p. 8) there's also a picture of another F-1, WNr. 5627, coded SG+GV, presumabily delivered to JG 51 in the same period (nov 40).
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