Question to Jürgen Harder P-47/P-51 and submarine claim - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Jan Bobek · #1 27th June 2006, 10:24

Dear all,

could somebody clarify if J. Harder (Co. of I./JG 53 in Italy) claimed on 18. April 1944 a Thunderbolt or Mustang? Tony Wood´s list indicates P-47, but J. Prien in his JG 53 book indicates P-51 (325. FG lost 1 P-47 and 31. FG lost 3 P-51s) - JG 77 and JG 53 submitted 5 claims of fighters (one claim was later postponed (ASM))

Another question is related to destroying a submarine (in MTO?) by J. Harder. Can anybody help with more details?

Thanks in advance for help

Jan

Alex Smart · #2 27th June 2006, 11:14

Hi,
"Checkertail Clan" has only that "18th April Swept the Udine Area, Lt. S.D.Dowd s/d a 109 while Lt's S.E.Brown and P. Rogers scored 190's.
Lt, Gonda was lost on this mission."
P47 - 42-75851 - MACR 4229
The a/c used by 325 at this time were still P47's.

The 31FG P51's were
42-106571 - MACR 4227
42-106574 - MACR 4375
42-106546 - MACR 4376

Alex

Steve49 · #3 27th June 2006, 12:03

Jan

Do you have the date of the submarine claim?

Regards

Steve Pegge

Jan Bobek · #4 27th June 2006, 12:28

Alex - thanks!

Steve - I am afraid I do not have it, or failed to find it.

Jan

Steve49 · #5 27th June 2006, 13:04

Jan

I've not come across a claim by a Bf109 against a submarine in the Mediterranean, but do you have any more details about the claim so I can try and identify the incident.

Steve

Laurent Rizzotti · #6 27th June 2006, 16:06

I remember reading in Shores/Cull 'Malta: the Spitfire Year' that at least one Allied submarine was strafed by Bf 109s in 1942 in Malta harbor and I wonder if the claim of Harder was done there .

Steve49 · #7 27th June 2006, 16:40

The British submarines P36 and Pandora were sunk in harbour on the 1st April 1942, but this was following attacks by Ju87's (III/StG 3). The Greek submarine Glavkos was sunk on the 4th April (not on the 5th as listed in the Spitfire years) but this appears to have been after an attack by Ju88's. The marauding Bf109's may have strafed submarines, but none appear to have been sunk by them during this difficult period for the defenders of Malta.

Regards

Steve Pegge

Jan Bobek · #8 28th June 2006, 13:36

Thanks guys,

I will check Prien´s and Cull´s books again.

regards

Jan

Jan Bobek · #9 29th June 2006, 10:43

In first volume of JG 53 I found only claim of two 6./JG 53 pilots for sinking of two submarines off La Valetta in early afternoon of 29.12.1941. No relation to Harder (at that time member of III./JG 53).

crolick · #10 2nd July 2009, 00:44

None allied sub was lost near La Valletta on 29 XII 1941. The two attacked submarines were UPHOLDER and URGE escorted by the trawler BERYL returning from the exercises. The attack was reported at 16.04. Only UPHOLDER was slighly damaged.

As for strafed submarine - in Polish naval sources it is claimed that on 19 III 1942 Polish submarine SOKOL was attacked and slightly damaged by 2 Bf.109. In one of the aviation articles about fights over Malta I found the information that those two were from II./JG 53. Any chance to confirm this or deny?!

Andrzej