7 October 1944

[CENTURION]

Hello All,

I am interested in the losses suffered by German fighters on 7 October 1944 in the fights mentioned below:
That day the 373th FG was in combat in the Bonn area with the I./JG2 & II./JG2 while the 365th FG was facing the II./JG6 between Bonn and Koln.

Do you have any info?

Thanks

Best Regards
Marco

[Heuser]

Hi Marco,

I've only a single loss of 3./JG 2 (and no idea about JG 6):

Lt. Felix Seimetz, Fw 190 A-8, 173 801, crashed near Wahlfeld, 7 km SE of Siegburg, "combat with 16 - 20 P-47".

373.FG lost a/c 42-27187 near Niederkassel/Mondorf and 42-74730 near Swisttal/Miel.

I./JG 11, I./JG 77 and 36.FG lost some a/c in the same area.

Hope this helps

Heuser

[CENTURION]

Dear Heuser,

thank you very much for you reply.

I was expecting more losses for the JG2 because of the high number of American claims (and usually they are quite accurate)! May it be a case of overclaiming?
Infact, according to my reconstruction, 11 P47 of the 412nd FS @ 10:20 at 10000 feet were bounced by more than 50 Me109 and Fw190 in the Bonn area. The Americans claimed 10 Fw190 and 1 Me109 for the loss of 4 P47 (1/Lt. George Gautier MIA, 1/lt. Robert Wierdsma MIA, 1/Lt. William Tucker who came down in allied territory WIA, 1 P47 declared Cat. E at the base). Probably they were in combat with I./JG11 that claimed 4 P47 at the same time and place for the loss of two Fw190 and I./JG2 and II./JG2 that claimed 1 P47 each.
I'm not sure the 161st rcn Sq. of the 363rd TRG, that claimed 2 Me109 @ 10:35 6 miles east of Koblenz, was involved in the same fight.

I./JG77 was in combat at the same time but further south, near Frankfurt, because they claimed one P47 @ 10:30 between Budingen and Bindsachsen. They were probably in combat with the 377th FS of the 362nd FG that claimed 3 Me109 @ 11:10 near "Godern" (probably Gedern, that is 15 km north of Budingen) for no MACR losses.

The following combat occurred in the afternoon, when II./JG2 claimed 1 P47 @ 15:38 noth-east of Hachenberg and I./JG77 claimed 2 P47 @ about 15:45 near Westerwald for the loss of 3 Me109 near Bonn. They were probably in combat with the 36th FG (time of combat not known), that lost 2/Lt. William Young POW that came down south of Dortmund near Kalthof (30 km NE of Hachenberg) and 2/Lt. Herbert Carr POW that came down near Oberwesterwald. It is interesting to note that there are no American claims at this time; is it possible that the 3 Me109 were lost in the following fight (described below)?

Infact about one hour later, 12 P47 of the 388th FS of the 365th FG were bounced by some Fw190 and Me109. The American pilots claimed 2 Fw190 (probable) and 3 Fw190 damaged @ 16:40 between Bonn and Koln for the loss of 4 P47 (Lt. C. Shoup, Lt. R. Hunter, Lt. R. Baker all MIA and Lt. R. Longley, crash landing at the base, Cat. E). They were in combat with 10./JG27 that claimed 2 P47 for no losses and II./JG6 that claimed 6 P47.

Were there other German units involved in these combats against the 9th Air Force?



Best Regards
Marco

[Heuser]

Hi Marco

according to the German KU Reports, both P-47 of 36.FG crashed (or were found) between 15:30 and 17:00.

The crash locations, according to the same source:

Young, 36.FG, 42-26061, POW: Sessenbach, N Höhr-Grenzhausen
Carr, 36.FG, 42-26469, POW: Hof, ENE of Bad Marienberg
Gautier, 373.FG, 42-27187, KIA: near Mondorf ferry, left bank of the Rhine
Wierdsma, 373.FG, 42-74730, POW: 1,5 km SW Miel, E of Euskirchen

Further the crash locations of the 365.FG's a/c were (sorry, no names):

42-75604: Hoffnungsthal near Rösrath
42-28276: Hohn/Wahlscheid, near Lohmar
44-19954: Buschfeld near Erftstadt
42-75160: just NE of Köln-Wahn a/f

...of JG 11:
Haufe: Bonn-Beuel
Mrohe: Ransbach-Baumbach

...of JG 77
Massmann: Bonn area
Jacobs: Hangelar near Bonn
Harcken: Bonn area
Elsässer: Road between Büdingen and Bindsachsen (burried in Bindsachsen)
Stölting: Road between Büdingen and Bindsachsen (acc. to VdK: Bindsachsen)

You should be able to track these locations with Google Maps.

Hope this helps,

Best regards

Heuser

[Flitzer]

Names of four 365th that were lost:

Lt. Col. Donald E. Hillman, shot down by flak near Bornheim, near Bonn. Captured.

2nd Lt. Richard Hunter, captured.

2nd Lt. Robert Baker, captured.

2nd Lt. Clyde M. Shoup, hit in the dogfight, baled out, chute did not open.

Five P-47's lost, including the one destroyed in crash landing. Two FW 190 claimed destroyed and two claimed as damaged.

[John Beaman]

Have only one Fw 190 loss for JG 6:

Fw 190A-8, 173050, Marx, Oblt. Hans, 8./JG 6, schwarze << + -, 07-Oct-44, MIA, cause unknown., WASt, bei Fl.Pl. Wahn

[CENTURION]

Thank you Gentlemen
for the additional info.



Best Regards
Marco

[Michael Land]

I also have an interest about the 7th October involving B17's Mustangs and Me163's. This was on a raid to Zwickau. A B17 having turned back due to extensive flak damage was then attacked by Me163's. It was ceratinly busy in the skies this particular day!

[Heuser]

Originally Posted by John Beaman

Have only one Fw 190 loss for JG 6:

Fw 190A-8, 173050, Marx, Oblt. Hans, 8./JG 6, schwarze << + -, 07-Oct-44, MIA, cause unknown., WASt, bei Fl.Pl. Wahn

Maybe a little bit late, but just found the following:

the remains of Marx and his a/c were found in 1997 near the highway A3/E35 in Rösrath/Rambrücken, according to local sources Marx was shot down by Shoup of 365.FG; hope this helps...

Regards

Heuser

[John Manrho]

Heuser,

Working on JG 6's history this battle has been researched by me also. I would very much like to know which source says that 2./Lt. Shoup shot down Oblt. Marx. I do not believe that is very likely.

Regards,

John.