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The Second World War in General Please use this forum to discuss other World War Two related subjects not covered by the main categories.

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  #21  
Old 29th March 2023, 15:14
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Fair questions, but I think we addressed most (if not all) of these in the book. Loss reports are much more reliable than claims, simply because if they were not reported, they got no re-supply from the factories and aviation schools. As simple as that. Especially the Soviets who had a full dept. in the Air Armies to do the paperwork of planes and plane engines +/-, writing re-supply orders. You would be blown by their details. Same numbers cross-referenced in regiment-, division-, air army levels - no room for hiding anything. Again: in 1944-45. Not to mention that at least in 1944-45 the Soviets could preserve all of their records as opposed to the Germans, whose offices burned down with all of their records in RAF night attacks where tons, I mean tons of 'victories' were approved afterwards without any re-investigation!!!! Simply because it was impossible to re-investigate. So these records afterwards worth next to NOTHING to me!!! All claims got approved in the 2nd turn, simply because they lost most of the original papers in RAF bombardments. Read the book if you want to know how 'precise' this German verification system was, which, by the way changed several times... On the other hand I do not trust the Soviet victory claims either. The only piece of information that I can take seriously from them is the name of the claimer and the fact that he (and his unit) flew there and then and they met some enemy planes. That's it. I do not care about the rest. Especially because the Soviets could not differentiate the Bf 109s and the Fw 190s in the air, especially in the dark fall/winter months in poor visibility conditions. So imagine the mess in their claims.... Germans too. The loss records are different. Those are super precise. For all nations I trust their own loss reports and ignore their claims for these very reasons. We can play with claims, we can make all kinds of statistics, but according to the wise saying: 'From sh.t you cannot build a castle.' In 1945 the Germans burned several tons of their own military records in order to avoid their capture! No wonder that their records are so incomplete. Funny, but many German records were saved by the Soviets who preserved them and they are also kept in TsAMO RF. Long story.... And no, this is just my -lifelong- hobby. Cheers,

Gabor
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  #22  
Old 29th March 2023, 15:50
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Comparing scores and correlating claims-vs-losses are two legitimate subtopics of airwar enthusiasm. It's unbalanced to label the former as "shit" just because you like the latter better.
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  #23  
Old 4th April 2023, 09:17
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Comparing scores is a perfectly legitimate passtime as long as you realise that roughly half of what you are comparing is unicorn droppings and does not bear any relation to reality. You do not have to invoke dishonnesty, pilot error, misunderstanding and wishful thinking is enough.

Who is better. Pilot 1 who claimed and was awarded 100 victories and there is good evidence actually shot down at least 70 or Pilot 2 who claimed 120, but we can only find 60 aircraft losses that match?

You seem to be saying that the aces are reliable and that there are whole squadrons of aircraft that were lost, but no-one wanted to replace them because they were scared to tell the boss.

Which is more likely?
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  #24  
Old 4th April 2023, 10:51
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

No, I'm saying that the arrogance of individuals who denigrate those who like comparing scores is based on the misapprehension that loss lists are complete.
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  #25  
Old 4th April 2023, 14:16
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Oh do tell us how complete or incomplete loss listings are on the basis of painstaking, meticulous Googling and trawling the appendices in the back of Osprey books...

Perhaps the "denigration" comes from the fact that researching casualties comes from an interest in remembrance whereas comparing "scores" listed completely and utterly at face value reflects an interest that seems rather close to glorification...?
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  #26  
Old 4th April 2023, 19:37
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Good evening,

for those who are interested in the confirmation-verification-issue it might be noteworthy that the first guy who scored 5 kills verified by losses was credited with only 4 confirmed, thereby missing the distinction of becoming the first ace of them all: Eugène Gilbert.

Cheers,

Michael
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  #27  
Old 7th April 2023, 09:35
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

My learned friend has obviously misunderstood the prosecution case.

Our contention is that claims are unreliable, something which your last submission amply demonstrates.

How did you find this particular case was an underclaim?

Loss records
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  #28  
Old 7th April 2023, 09:42
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

For correlating the claims with the losses you need to know
the losses
and the claims.
I'm interested in the claims but mostly in what aircraft a pilot was flying when making the claims.
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  #29  
Old 10th April 2023, 11:55
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Knusel, just because you do not think that the Soviet loss lists are complete and much more reliable than claims lists it is still true. For Hungary we obtained all (I mean: ALL!) Soviet loss records which created a unique and unprecedented situation. This is how we could write the book and how we can confidently prove/disprove ANY Axis claims over the country. If you never take the effort to do some real and authentic military research apart from reading books, articles and websites, certainly your loss lists will never ever be complete. In order to get the ultimate result, you must go to the ultimate sources, namely the TsAMO RF archives where the Soviet aircraft loss records are stored. Our museum did this before this recent tragic war and we got all loss records for Hungary from all Soviet air units that fought over the country in 1944-1945. From consecutive war diaries the very same losses cross-referenced at regiment-, division- and air army-levels, combat, as well as non-combat losses including accidents, wear and tear write offs - everything. By the way, have you ever become dirty by digging out aircraft wrecks from forests or fields or swamps in order to compare them to the loss documentation and return the missing aircrews to their late families? Well, we have, and probably needless to say, but every time when a Soviet aircraft was recovered, its numbers matched the corresponding loss report! So please do not tell me that they cannot be trusted, or they are incomplete, because this is only your personal and unverified opinion. Since WWII these records help to identify the remains of the missing and recovered Soviet aircrews. I can say this after going through thousands of such pages. Some mechanical reports are so detailed that they even report which cylinder, or cylinder-row was repaired within a certain aircraft engine! And these are solid facts, not just assumptions, or false, yet popular legends that some biased people do not want to give up. See a small variety of records I was talking about:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1949974...77720307385993

Certainly you can do whatever you want, including claiming statistics, but keep in mind that it will not change the truth – which is very often not reflected by the claims.
Cheers,
Gabor
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  #30  
Old 10th April 2023, 14:34
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Your posts and your book show the depth of your research and the completeness of the records extremely well, Gabor. We are lucky to have you here.

You amply demonstrate that Ace Pilots did not fly in a vacuum. There were other human beings in the aircraft that make up their victories and overclaiming was indeed a factor
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