Help!!! BF-110 G2 Crashplace

[martinexc]

Hello!!!

I Need any Information from an BF-110 Crash in Upper Austria.
Crashplace was near Molln.
I found today many Parts from this Aircraft....Landing Gear Door,.....
I have this Information:

StabII/ZG76
? 25.2.1944 ? Werk Nr ? 6430 ?
Werk Nr wrong?

FF LT Paul Claasen
BF LT Otto Kahr

Anybody more Information or Detail for me?

Thanks and Regards from Austria!!!

[schwarze-man]

Hi Martinexc!
That looks like a good find. The first picture with the gear (zahnrad) is the camshaft drive at the upper end (kurbelgehause end). It is also from the left hand side, with the lower bracket for the vertical shaft that adjusts the magneto timing. It has the lower end of that shaft still fitted. You will see that the gear is fitted in a housing that engages in the broken casting. If you look carefully, you should find that that housing has the engine number (motor nmr) stamped on the very edge of it, maybe something like "0877659" or some other number. This might possibly be useful if you find more engine parts. The engine would have been a DB605B. It would seem that the aircraft impacted very hard to break this piece off. You might find many more parts. Cheers

SM

[Matti Salonen]

1944-02-24, Stab II/ZG 76, Bf 110 G-2, 6490, Bodniggraben bei Molle, südlich Linz
Flugzeugführer Lt Claasen, Paul, +
Bordfunker Lt Kurth, Otto, +
Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.

Matti

[Stig Jarlevik]

Matti

I come nowhere near WNr 6490 (last I have is 6429)
Can you or anyone else explain why?

Cheers
Stig

[Matti Salonen]

Very probably a type in original documents.

Please note that on 1944-02-24 6./ZG 76 lost also 6430 (Fw Braig, August and Uffz Span, Anton) in the same area as "6490".

Matti

[martinexc]

Thanks for your help guys!!!
I have only this Information from the ÖFH Verluste Sonderband 31:

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Matti

You mean a rare mistake by the NVM?
But two? Also WNr 6430 is outside the range listed by Mankau/Petrick. Must say it makes me feel a bit uneasy....

Martinexc

I have the ÖFS Sonderheft 30 and none of the two aircraft listed by Matti is in it. Seems they issued a vol 2 (Sonderheft 31), which I don't have, but still got it wrong. Matti has done an enourmous amount of research in German archives and the number of mistakes that has crept into his files are very, very few.
And when he lists these two incidents on the same day and connects them to a WNr we all take his word for it that it is correct.
So his version carry far more weight than what is written by ÖFH.

Cheers
Stig

[Matti Salonen]

Stig, in fact the last issued WNr. seems to be 6431:
1944-01-29, 6./ZG 76, Bf 110 G-2, 6431, Raum Birkenfeld/Nahe
Flugzeugführer Fw Gutzeit, Friedrich, verletzt
Bordfunker Uffz Markhof, Wolfgang, verletzt
Luftkampf. Bruch ? %.

I don't have just now Mankau/Petrick list in my hands, but to me it would be strange, if two errors in original documents were with consecutive WNrs, especially when both 6430 and 6431 (as well as also 6429) were operated by the same Staffel at the same time.

Please note that even NVMs contain too many errors, although maybe not as many as GQM list.

Also, we have to remember that majority of the surviving NVMs at WASt are those, which according to the distribution list were sent to GQM. In 1944 losses very often have aircraft information handwritten (I believe taken by GQM personnel from material loss reporting system) to the typed document, which makes them as reliable or unreliable as GQM data. There are also handwritten notes of the date and line numbers of the GQM loss returns, which clearly confirms some sort of comparison between personnel and material loss data.

It would be nice, if someone, who knows the material loss reporting system used between the Staffel and RLM will guide us to understand its working principle.

Finally, we can be pretty sure that 6490 is false, but 6430 and 6431 need further research.

Matti

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks again Matti

So there is a WNr 6431 as well. Both 6430 and 6431 are so close to 6429 that they both feel very much OK.

I will list both of them as definite while 6490 will remain "bogus".

With regard to WNr reports, indeed, I was making a mental comparison between GQM and NVM and of course understands the general situation you express.
Best thing, no doubt, is to have manufacturer's reports/lists, but when it comes to Luftwaffe there will most likely always exist so many gaps that some form of educated guesswork is needed.

Discussions on TOCH is therefore very beneficial, at least to me

Cheers
Stig

[Jim P.]

On a ZG76 loss list compiled by Hans Ring, the crew of Fw. Friedrich Gutzeit was WIA in WNr.6431 on 29-Jan-44. No notation as to the extent of the loss %.