Which P-47 was shot down by German Pilot Ziesmann?

[Rolfeb]

Hi All,
thanks a lot for your great response.
Based on your answers I would like to add some more comments.

Ziesmann flew in 2./NAGr. 13. As far as I understand, they usually flew with 2planes only during their reconnaissance flights. May be it wasnt a dog fight with 20plus planes.
In addition the time given by Zismann is 10:51am.
Probably we can exclude some of the P-47 because fley in the afternoon and also because of the area.
Thanks a lot in advance
Rolf

[Chris Goss]

All Ziesmann said is that he was on a way back from a mission with Fw Hanns Zimmermann when they carried out a high speed bounce on some P-47s, shooting one down but during which the tail of Zimmermann's ac broke off. It flipped up vertically and he just managed to bale out, his chute opening just before he landed in a marsh. He suffered 24 fractures. BTW he confirmed that his St Kap was Messner. I have nothing on the P-47 apart from possibly a French link?

[CENTURION]

Hello Rolf,

I think Chris and Horst are right.
12 P-47s of G.C.II/3 "Dauphinè" took off at 9.30 to bomb a railway track between Belfort and Altkirch. Suddenly, over the target area, two Bf.109s bounced the aircraft of adjudant-chef Le Guennec. The hydraulic line on the left wing was hit and a trail of black smoke poured from the P-47.
Despite this, the French pilot was able to return and land safely at Lyon-Bron airport.
Regards.

Marco


Source: "Pilotes Francais sur l'Alsace et l'Allemagne"

[Rolfeb]

First of all, thanks a lot to all who replied to my questions.

Marco, thanks for the explanation and source where you found the info.
Sounds very logical to me.
Thanks again
Rolf

[Rolfeb]

First of all, thanks a lot to all who replied to my questions.

Marco, thanks for the explanation and source where you found the info.
Sounds very logical to me.
Thanks again
Rolf

[Rottler]

Hello Rolf,

on 18 Nov 1944 a Thunderbolt was lost near Boron, 15 km southeast of Belfort, German casuality no. ME 2419 (MACR list November 1944). Unfortunately no time of the crash, serial and unit is given. The crash location points to one of the French Thunderbolts.

Regards
Leo

[Horst Weber]

Originally Posted by Rottler

Hello Rolf,

on 18 Nov 1944 a Thunderbolt was lost near Boron, 15 km southeast of Belfort, German casuality no. ME 2419 (MACR list November 1944). Unfortunately no time of the crash, serial and unit is given. The crash location points to one of the French Thunderbolts.

Regards
Leo

Fits perfect

Belfort was attacked by the First French Army and the forts were taken from November 14th - 20th 1944 . On November 18th, in the about 15 km southeast located Boron, a Wehrmacht unit could have easily investigated the P-47 crash, sent the results by mail to Oberursel, whose compiled
ME 2419.

On the other hand, a crashed enemy aircraft should had been visible at the location for the reporting Wehrmacht unit, since a ME-report was compiled.

Postwar, all of those Oberursel-files went to the U.S. for investigation of U.S. fates.

Probably, the postwar transcripts and catalogues for the allied losses are not so detailed as the U.S. ones, since the U.S. sent them direct to the Nations of concern. And a publication of this matter was probaly handled in this states under other circumstances as the U.S. handled it.

Horst Weber

[Rolfeb]

Hi Leo and Horst,
From Marco’s post I understand that the French pilot was hit by a Me 109 but made it back to the base.
Now we have a crash site near Boron of a P-47. This is confusing me a bit.
Seems odd me that we have 2 different planes or combats but nut sure.
Thanks again for your answers and hope we can clarify.
Rolf